Mr. Webb: 0:00

Oh my gosh yeah, we are now.

David Carmichael: 0:03

Joey's already having second thoughts about this, Josh. I have to start a terrible idea why don't I invite them both on at the same time.

Mr. Webb: 0:11

I say, okay, we're recording. That was sorry, that was the worst cricket sound I've ever heard.

Josh Watkins: 0:20

Oh, I thought your pager is going off.

Mr. Webb: 0:25

Welcome to The Conservative Classroom, where we're teaching the truth and preserving our values. I'm your host, Mr. Webb, and I'm glad you're here. This podcast is a haven for conservative educators, parents, and patriots like you, who believe in the importance of free speech, traditional values, and education without indoctrination. Each week, we dive into issues that are plaguing our education system and keeping you up at night. In each episode, we offer common sense ideas to improve education in our classrooms and communities. You may feel like you're the last conservative educator or parent, but I want you to know that you are not alone. By the way, if you like what you hear today, please share this podcast with a like-minded educator, parent or patriot. Together, we can teach the truth and preserve our values.

Mr. Webb: 1:25

In today's very special episode, I'm joined by a couple of remarkable educator friends. So grab a cup of hot cocoa, settle in by the fireplace and let's dive into a conversation filled with holiday cheer, insightful perspectives and a sprinkle of conservative wisdom. Now let's get started. I'm excited to welcome two special guests to The Conservative Classroom my colleagues and friends, Josh and David, and we're here on a special holiday episode of The Conservative Classroom to catch up on old times and talk about education. So you guys introduce yourselves and tell us how you got into teaching.

Josh Watkins: 2:12

Alright, David, I'll let you go first. Age before beauty.

David Carmichael: 2:17

Fair enough, sir, alright. Well, I am at David Carmichael and I started in education back in 2008. I started teaching middle school band and music and I did that for a total of 10 years. Along the way I picked up a master's degree in curriculum and instruction as a music teacher. I figured another degree in music would just give everyone two reasons to fire me, as the arts are often on the chopping block. And so I picked that up, thinking if I ever did lose my job as a music teacher, I could maybe take a practice and teach something else for a while.

David Carmichael: 2:56

But always knew since sixth grade that I wanted to be in education and teaching.

David Carmichael: 3:02

And then in, I guess about 2014, I was persuaded by the principal I had at that time to enter into a principal cohort, and my wife seconded that because she knew rank one would be a pay raise.

David Carmichael: 3:21

And so I went through the program fully intending never to use it, never really wanted to leave the classroom and think about an administrative position, but just a couple courses or really a couple in-person meetings in, and I realized that the administrative world was something I very much wanted to get into and be a part of.

David Carmichael: 3:44

We, as teachers, often want a bottom up approach to fixing a lot of problems and that's really the way it should be. But sometimes I think in order to get things done, you have to be some people who are willing to move up to help those things take place. And so, as much as I do sometimes miss being in the classroom, I still get in it pretty often and feel very blessed to have been. I guess now I'm in my sixth year as an administrator for as a principal and two as an assistant principal and was able to stay in the same place for 14 of those 16 years and met both of you guys on the podcast today there and just really enjoyed that time there and excited about being more back home now with my family. As the job opened up last fall and I'll pass the torch, josh you want to go ahead and introduce yourself.

Josh Watkins: 4:42

Well, I'm Josh Watkins. I have been in education now for 11 years. Four of those were in the special education setting as a LBD teacher, five of those as a sixth grade, seventh grade and eighth grade math teacher, and then the past two years have been an administration, all at the same school, and I too was persuaded to go into or take an administrative route from a principal that we had at the time and, like David, I never intended to use that rank one to be an administration. But after Mr Carmichael decided to move back home, I was presented with the opportunity from the principal that took over or assistant principal under David had asked me personally to be her assistant, so that I took over.

Josh Watkins: 5:45

My original bachelor's was in business and I did that for a few years and honestly, the draw for me to education was summers off, and which I quickly learned that summers off that is in quotation marks, especially now and then I pursued my master's in special education and got my highly qualified status in math and then on my rank one in administration. So I haven't enjoyed my time and use my planning skills to, I feel, better help the school and we are now no longer TSI from our state testing data. So whatever we were doing worked at least one year anyways.

Mr. Webb: 6:35

And excuse me, can you explain what TSI?

Josh Watkins: 6:40

What is that? So, basically, we were one step away from from having the State Department come in and basically clean house. Our scores were very low. It's ranked on a goes and, david, you may have told me out, but it's red, orange, yellow, green and then blue, blue being the top and red being the lowest. And so the prior year we were down in the low orange, which was right before you get to the top, and so we were under underwatch, I guess kind of like a probationary period. And then this past year we've moved up to yellow and we were only about 10 points away from being in the green status. That's awesome.

David Carmichael: 7:28

Yeah, it is good job, Sir.

Josh Watkins: 7:32

So thank you, and I know David schools in the green this year Congratulations. We were. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Webb: 7:40

So, Josh, how long were you an LGBT teacher?

Mr. Webb: 7:44

Oh, that's LBD. I'm so sorry, but you know as soon as you said LBD teacher please don't forget this.

Josh Watkins: 8:01

Don't Sorry. Learning and behavior disorders, Gotcha Okay.

Mr. Webb: 8:06

That makes way more sense.

Josh Watkins: 8:10

I'm not well versed in the other.

Mr. Webb: 8:13

I worked with you guys for two years and where we worked was an amazing, amazing place. The students were amazing, the teachers were amazing and I learned so much from both of you guys. David was my oh, what's that teacher? What's that called? I just went blank.

David Carmichael: 8:38

Teacher internship program. It's not around anymore, I guess officially by the state, but K tip was it Kentucky teacher internship program and I guess it's still in effect for the different. The state no longer funds it but the board of education in each district is responsible for making sure that new teachers do have that, that mentor process that still goes on mentor yeah, that's the word I was looking for.

Mr. Webb: 9:04

You were like my mentor teacher, so you would come in and observe and, man, you were always willing to help and you gave me some great feedback and I honestly felt like you made me a better teacher, and I worked with Josh too.

Josh Watkins: 9:23

And he was just there.

David Carmichael: 9:26

I was glad I was the only one that didn't pick up on the long silence there.

Mr. Webb: 9:31

But seriously, Josh, Josh was the co-teacher, so I don't know if other districts and other parts of the country call it co-teacher or not, but basically he was a special education teacher that would come in my classroom with his students and we would co-teach and I've been in situations where the co-teacher was a true co-teacher and I feel like that's the situation that we were in, Josh, like we would talk, we'd work behind the scenes. If I was up teaching math and Josh had an idea, he would just jump right in and we had that, like you knew it was okay to do that.

Mr. Webb: 10:17

And I wanted you to do that and I learned from you and I feel like you learned from me maybe not so much, but I learned a lot from you and I feel like we worked really well together and we were just a great team. I feel like we really got to know the students. The students had a blast when we were together in class, so my hats off to both of you guys. I think you're awesome, amazing educators and you'll never get a compliment like this behind the scenes. So suck it up.

David Carmichael: 10:50

We'll bask in that for a few moments. I think I'll speak for me and Josh too. We learned plenty from you too, sir, excellent master teacher. I appreciate that, yes, absolutely.

Josh Watkins: 11:02

And especially coming from a. We're both option six candidates.

Mr. Webb: 11:09

So yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. So, option six for folks that don't know, that is where, instead of now. David, you said you knew you wanted to be an educator from sixth grade. Is that right? Yes, so you went. When you went into college, you went into the teaching program, absolutely so. Option six is for the folks that got a degree in that wasn't in teaching, that later decided to teach, not a traditional route, right and non-traditional route.

Mr. Webb: 11:41

I was in the, I went into banking and insurance and did that for about 12 years before I got into teaching. So I was. I was thought about this a few minutes ago and was going to mention it, david, when you were talking. There's a lot of folks. I think it's because of my age. So I'm 50.

Mr. Webb: 12:01

I started teaching when I was 40 and a lot of folks asked me hey, are you going to try to get into administration? You're going to try to be a principal? I think it's just cause of my age, honestly, because I'm older than you, know a lot of the teachers and I don't have any interest in that. I want to stay in the classroom as long as I can. But you said something that I keyed in on, and that is that you didn't think you had any interest. But when you got to looking into it you changed your mind and you realized that you didn't word it this way. But somebody has to, somebody has to do it. Somebody has to get in there and be that person that all the teachers want them to be. You know, we all, we all want a good principal. Somebody has to get in there and make the difference.

David Carmichael: 12:55

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and, like I said, you know, as a teacher I remember multiple times thinking, oh man, I wish we could do this, I wish we had the support to do this. I wish I could experiment in my classroom and feel like it wouldn't be a gotcha if someone walked in and that experience isn't there all the time. And as much as you can say, you know, I want this for me. If everyone that has that passion and that zeal is working just nonstop and they don't have the support above them to encourage that to continue, they get beat down and decided that that's not worth it and so then they're not enjoying what they're doing anymore. You know, and you've got to have people that are willing to do that, that, that and again. I don't.

David Carmichael: 13:46

I don't think there was ever a point with me where I stopped wanting to teach. There are still times where we'll have our music or band teacher out of the building and they'll have a substitute in there and I'll go in there and kick them out and say go, enjoy a long break, I'm going to teach for a while because I miss. I miss being in there with the kids in that capacity sometimes. But again, you've got to have someone that's willing to do that, to say I'll step into that role and try to be the person I wished I would have had when I was teaching. And I think Josh felt the same thing when he went through some of those courses.

David Carmichael: 14:22

There's a part of you that it's the same part of you that first got you into the profession saying, man, I don't know if this is really what I want to do or not. And then you have that moment where, yeah, this is exactly what I want to do. And for me, as much as I went into that administration degree with a whole lot of reservations, just within a few classes the passion to do that started to become stronger than the passion to just keep going at it in the classroom level. And I thought you know what? Maybe I can do this and not have to feel like I'm doing things the way that traditionally I've seen them done. I can do it the way I think it needs to be done and then hope that I have people at central office that will support me in that. And you know, again, you have to have people that'll step up and do that at that level. Then it all, it can trickle up to the point where someone's listening and then let it trickle back down to the people that need it.

Mr. Webb: 15:22

That's awesome. What's your?

Josh Watkins: 15:24

thoughts on that.

Mr. Webb: 15:25

Josh, I know when you got into teaching. You didn't automatically want to be a principal, am I right?

Josh Watkins: 15:31

No, absolutely not. I mean, like David, I miss the classroom every day, especially going into some of our math classrooms, and like they'll have to step out and take a call or go use the restroom or something like that, and I'll take that time to jump in and do what I used to do and it gives me that I don't know like a fix that I need. But I saw a lot of like there were good and bad examples everywhere, and so I try to pick on that and, as you both know, I kind of talk to everybody in the school and so, and listening to things that are good or bad, or people like or don't like, and then seeing I'm going to brag on David, I won't ever do this again.

David Carmichael: 16:27

But you guys are being great on the air. I appreciate that so much.

Josh Watkins: 16:31

But, sadly I'm going to edit this out David, but seeing David step in and kind of do the same thing that I feel that I do is stepping in and doing the things that need to be done, or putting the things out there that need to be done or accomplish, or at least trying to get the ball rolling with what teachers need or what the discipline needs at that time, was very helpful. And then, of course, david pushed and, pushed, and pushed and on me to get where I am. So a lot of examples along the way, whether they're good or bad, it was a learning experience and helped to help push me in that direction. So, but, like I said, still need my fix from time to time.

Mr. Webb: 17:31

The fact that you guys were in a classroom and a lot of folks get into teaching. Some of them, you know their intent is to be a principal, so that's teaching is just a. They know it's just a stop along the way, but then you guys the kids loved you guys. You guys were awesome teachers who eventually decided to get into administration. Do you think that makes you better administrators?

Josh Watkins: 18:02

I think. I don't think it makes me better, but listening and being able to build relationships. That rolls over into administration. So if you're not building relationships in the classroom, you're not going to be able to build relationships as an administrator with your teachers. And so those high turnover years which, david, you were part of it just as much as I was, but I think that's what lacked in those years and you can correct me if I'm wrong on that.

David Carmichael: 18:39

No, I think you're 100% right and I guess to me, Joey, no, I don't think it made me a better administrator just because, like I was reluctant going in. I think probably what makes the best administrators is, I guess, when I think of the bad examples, that kind of Josh was referring to there, the non examples they're the people that the teachers would get together and say kind of underhandedly, they've been out of the classroom too long and that's it Like with what Josh is saying and with what I try to do. I hate being out of the classroom. I want to be in there as often as I can, in whatever capacity I'm working. I just that's where I want to be.

David Carmichael: 19:30

And you know, my kids here at the school know if I'm in my office for more than an hour or two a day that I'm going to be grumpy at the end of the day because this isn't where I want to be. Like, I want to be in the classrooms with them helping out. You know, trying to, you know head off things before they become a big thing. But getting to know, like Josh said, those relationships with the kids a lot of principals the only time they see kids are when they're in trouble, or maybe when they're getting in you know off the bus. You don't know names that way, you don't know kids that way and you sure don't know what's going on with them that way. The best examples that I have as an administrator are those, those administrators who make it a point to get in to the classroom so you can't say about them they forgotten what it's like to be in there. The ones that are awful are the ones that don't ever step foot in there, unless it's for an observation.

Josh Watkins: 20:26

Right, I agree 100%.

Mr. Webb: 20:30

I the principal that that I have now he is.

Mr. Webb: 20:35

I don't know how long it's been since he's been in the classroom, but he's amazing. Like he's he's not in the classroom but he has an amazing relationship with these kids and I'm amazed at how many of the kids he knows their names. I mean he knows everybody's names and you know you'll see him give them fist bumps in the hall. And I worked under principles that had that relationship with students that did not support the teachers. But I have heard of principles who had a great relationship with the kids but when students, when their behavior issues in the classroom and the teachers had to send the student to the principal for some reason, they might come back to class with a candy bar or you know, it was like they had a great relationship with the students but they didn't back the teachers up. You know it's like their relationship. They didn't understand that line, I guess of hey, I'm, you know, I've got a great relationship, but I am a principal.

Josh Watkins: 21:36

Well, it's more of a fatherly relationship that you need to have with the student. If that makes sense, like you feel, the student feels like you have a good relationship and supported, but then they understand when they mess up, something is going to happen and right. The teachers in turn see that you know, yes, they have a good relationship, but they are also going to follow through with what needs to be done.

Mr. Webb: 22:05

Yeah, that's the kind of principle that I work for right now.

Mr. Webb: 22:11

You never, you know. He's always going to back you up, even though he has this incredible relationship with the students. If you have an issue and I try to take care of everything in my classroom like it has to get pretty bad you have to do something very drastic to get sent to the principal's office. Quote, quote, unquote sent to the principal's office. And when you send them to the principal office, you know like, oh, this is going to be very uncomfortable for them because he 100% supports the teachers and the efforts and he's not a micro manager. He lets the teachers like, you know, you're the professional we hired you to teach, we're going to let you run your classroom and I love that.

Josh Watkins: 22:55

Yeah, David was never like that.

David Carmichael: 23:01

There you are. That'll stay in the podcast.

Mr. Webb: 23:10

Oh that's funny and, excuse me, and I don't know, I don't know if I mentioned this or not before or after we started recording. I don't think I have. But you know, with you guys I kind of know your politics. We were friends as well as colleagues. But the principal I have now we don't talk about politics, so I don't know. You know what his politics are. I feel like as a teacher, we should kind of keep politics out of the classroom and you've got enough said this on many episodes. But you have one side, the liberal side. They are trying to push not everybody, but they're trying to push their politics on students. Meanwhile you've got conservatives that are just kind of remaining neutral on everything. So how do you balance that without pushing your conservative? And I'm really putting you guys on the spot because you're administrators now you may see both sides. You may have some really left wing teachers that that you're trying to rein in, maybe not.

Josh Watkins: 24:20

I mean I agree with you. I don't think politics have a place in inside the school. You know we're there to teach them about things other than politics. I mean you can go through. I mean it's just like teaching about other religions in a history class, you know, not trying to push a religion on them, just teach the history of how that religion came to be and educate them about a culture you know. And that's kind of the same with politics You're just educating about how that came to be, not, you know what you believe and what you think is the right thing. So I don't know, I just don't think it has a place in an education.

David Carmichael: 25:10

David may disagree, but no, I think your spot on. I don't think that's one of those things that we get into. And again, we all knew where each other stood on that because in addition to being colleagues, we were also friends, like we did talk outside school. We talked outside of, you know, faculty meetings and that sort of thing. It kind of got to know each other on that level. And I guess the same is true If anyone really wanted to know my political leanings, all they would have to do is go visit my social media accounts, because I'm pretty outspoken on there and don't mind that.

David Carmichael: 25:42

But I don't bring that in the front door. I leave that as an outside thing and if anyone wants to talk to me about that, I'm going to discuss that with them outside school. I'm not going to ask a teacher to come in and share their thoughts on, you know, something that I posted on their planning period. If they try to, I would probably just say, hey, let me chat with you after school about that. But I think that's probably the easiest way just to keep that at without becoming an issue where you feel awkward or uncomfortable or make someone else in the building feel like you're trying to impose anything on them, right, right.

Mr. Webb: 26:23

And I've said many times on the podcast that I'm blessed to be in a fairly conservative school district and you know we don't at school. You know teachers don't go around talking about politics. I'd say there's a lot of folks that don't know what my politics are. But when I say that I mean you know there's no, there's no area of my school that you'll see pride flags up or you know a lot of these things that are being pushed. So when I say fairly conservative district, that's what I mean we have. There's a lot of issues other places have that we don't have. And I'm familiar, josh, with where you're an administrator but, David, where you are a principal right now, is it a fairly conservative, meaning that you don't see, you might not talk about politics at school, but you don't have a lot of issues come up with. Hey, this teacher's got a pride flag up and there's some parents frustrated about that.

David Carmichael: 27:29

There are.

David Carmichael: 27:29

I mean, we are a university town and so obviously there are some some more liberal leanings at times and some of that in the district certainly has, you know, is part of it.

David Carmichael: 27:43

I don't, again, I think most are respectful enough that it doesn't really come up for discussion, but there are some signs that you know we can see there are. There are some faculty that do, at the end of their signatures you know their, their standard stock signature, at the end of an email it'll say you know him or her, you know hers, that sort of thing. By and large that's not the case, but there are some who do choose to use that, which you know makes me think I have an idea where their political leanings might be, you know, and that's not by any means the majority, but there are some that that do put that in there and so in my mind I'm thinking, okay, that that might be someone who leans that direction, but again, that has no bearing on their ability to instruct students is, you know, in any capacity there Right, as long as they keep keep politics out of the classroom.

Mr. Webb: 28:38

So it sounds like you guys aren't dealing with some of the crazy things that you know. Maybe some folks out in California or some other liberal areas are. But what is your? What's your biggest challenge as administrators?

Josh Watkins: 29:02

Unless you're ready to roll there, david, I've got.

Josh Watkins: 29:05

I've got my mind right now is and this is this is not speak for for everybody I had a lot of support, but parent relationships and then being able to decipher what a child says versus what a an adult is telling them, and what I mean by that is we've got a lot of that, plus outside influences, and by outside influences I mean social media, specifically Snapchat.

Josh Watkins: 29:49

So that's a huge challenge right now. And then the parents not taking what their child says as a gospel. We've had several things come up where it all starts on social media and most of it through Snapchat, where there's been something circulated outside of school and then it's brought into the school we're having now to, if it starts on social media, push that to the agency, like the Sheriff's Office or the police department, to deal with that before we start dealing with it in school. Then, like I said, with the parents side of that I know when I was growing up, I was disciplined at home and then ask questions about it later because the adults said that this happened and that's becoming a lot less of the case. It's almost like you're convincing the parent that this is what truly happened in class. So that's my biggest struggle right now.

Mr. Webb: 31:02

What about you, David?

David Carmichael: 31:04

Yeah, we're certainly seeing some of that too. Social media just the kids are constantly on their phones. I know all of us are in middle school and I think we can all say, just thinking back to our middle school experiences when we were a student there, a lot of parents say we'll look at all the bullying that goes on in middle school today. I feel like middle school is the same, as far as the amount of bullying that goes on in school, as it was 20, 30 years ago. It's back then we could go home and get away from it for a few hours. They don't have that luxury anymore. They go home and it's brought right back up in their face all night long, because they have parents that don't understand the technology as well as the kids do, or don't care. It gets them out of their room for a while and they can just be the mush heads on their technology and things are good there.

David Carmichael: 32:08

We certainly see our share of that too, I think. Probably what I'm dealing with more so than that right now, though, is just a lack of drive, I guess, from students and parents that are okay with that. What I mean by that, as far as drive goes I was talking to one of my former band director colleagues just a few weeks ago and they said they made a phone call home to just tell the parent hey, we're struggling with this in class right now. I've sent them home with this to work on. If you could help them with it a little bit, I think that it would really helped them out a lot. The parent's response was well, if they're struggling, we'll just take them out of band.

Josh Watkins: 32:51

We have actually had that exact same situation.

David Carmichael: 32:55

We have students who are struggling academically and I can call home and say, hey, we're going to try to put these supports in place to help. The parents' response is never mind, we'll just homeschool. We're having to and it's I don't know if and to a part I get it. If you listen especially to the national narrative about what public schools are doing, I would have caution about the quality of education my child's getting. Now, everywhere I've worked, I've been blessed to say, yes, 100 percent, I would absolutely send my kids to the school that I'm at without hesitation.

David Carmichael: 33:35

But I know some don't have that. Joey, I know in one of your podcasts there was a parent who started a homeschool for her kid because there weren't any good options that weren't just far till left, leaning with all of the indoctrination. We don't have that. But it's just like there's so little community and I won't say that overall. It's not like the consensus or the majority by any means, but there's just no faith in the system. There's no faith that and I think some of that's COVID and parents are like well, we taught our own kids at home for a year and they're okay, and we all know they're not because we're still dealing with that.

David Carmichael: 34:21

That did not help them and they did not proceed as normal. But it's just like well, we did it, then we can do it again and not have to deal with the school calling us and saying things are wrong with my kid. It's just so frustrating because that kid needs to be here, that kid needs the help that we can provide, and it almost makes you not want to call home and tell them this is what we need to do, for fear that they're going to just say, oh, okay, well, we'll pull them.

Josh Watkins: 34:49

Right. Yeah, that's happened five or six times this year when things have gotten tough and something really needed to be done. Good communication from home. It was pulling them to homeschool or more enrollment of virtual academy, something like that. I know for the most part of the ones who have pulled they're not putting them in a quality program or seeking communities. There's a small community of homeschoolers around this area that they meet together to do activities and get the social interaction and all that. That's what I consider a good community, but a lot of people are using it as a well. Things are getting tough, we'll just pull them out and they can be alone by themselves. We don't really care what kind of quality education they're getting.

Mr. Webb: 35:49

The kids know, that they know that well, I can do whatever I want because mom's going to side with me, or they'll just pull me out, they'll send me and I know you guys have seen this too, and thankfully I haven't seen a lot of this but where you've got a student who is a behavior issue and instead of the parent backing the school, they'll well, we'll just pull them out of here and send them over to this school. But more often we'll get students coming from other schools. So you know, like when you're three, fourths of the way through the school year and you get a new student, you're like well, what is yeah?

Mr. Webb: 36:31

like what's the story here? You know why did they get kicked out of their old school or why are the parents moving them? And obviously that's not always why they're coming in late like that, but but you do see that, and I think kids pick up on that and they take advantage of teachers.

Josh Watkins: 36:51

Absolutely Take advantage of a situation.

Mr. Webb: 36:54

But my big takeaway is something David said he listens to the podcast.

David Carmichael: 37:02

That's my takeaway from that.

Josh Watkins: 37:03

That's the most.

Mr. Webb: 37:06

That's funny, oh me.

Josh Watkins: 37:08

Yeah, this is the first time you're having it.

Mr. Webb: 37:13

Josh doesn't. He still doesn't know he's on a podcast.

Josh Watkins: 37:18

By the way, Josh, I have a podcast.

Mr. Webb: 37:20

We just didn't have cell phones anyway, oh wait but I've done several episodes about podcast or about homeschooling and, david, I think you mentioned in a text or maybe in conversation before today how some, some parents will they'll take their kid out of school and home school, but not for the right reasons. So just to make clear for all the listeners, that's what we're talking about. We're not we're not saying homeschooling is a bad thing, but homeschooling for the wrong reason is when you do it not because you care about your child or because you care about their learning, but when you care about it, when you care more about well, my kid's in trouble, so I'm just going to take them out. I think that's what we're talking about here.

David Carmichael: 38:15

Yeah, yeah, they're just. It's not to help their kids. And if a parent wants to, if a parent comes in and says, you know, I don't feel my child's academic needs are being met or I feel like this needs to happen, or you don't offer this by all means, I'm going to support them. They know their kid and they know it's best for their kid. And if that's why they're wanting to move or go somewhere else or homeschool, 100% you know you're their parent and I'm going to support you in that. But the ones that it's just. You know we don't want the conflict, we don't want the. You know we don't want our child to be labeled as a bad kid or we don't want we're escaping this consequence this way, that's, you're not helping your kid Escaping consequences.

Mr. Webb: 39:01

That's perfectly said there. That's what we're talking about.

Josh Watkins: 39:06

And that's what a lot has done. That's either to escape truancy or to escape behavioral consequences.

David Carmichael: 39:13

Yeah, and I don't think that's the majority by any means nationwide, but I think, with the ones that I've seen, that that seems to be kind of the going trend.

Mr. Webb: 39:25

Right? What effect does student apathy? I see this, you know, as a middle school teacher. It seems like to me that each year the kids just kind of care overall, they care less and less about learning. What are you seeing?

Josh Watkins: 39:44

Do you see the apathy increasing, or I actually had this conversation with one of our teachers the other day. She had asked me you know, are students carrying less or do I need to? You know, think about another profession, like, am I doing less? And I said no, it's kind of, across the board, from what I've seen, they're okay with just getting by and not, you know, putting forth their best effort, and whether that be in the regular classroom or in, you know, a related arts classroom, even like PE, seeing students that are very athletic, less interested in, you know, participating in a PE classroom playing a sport, and that blows my mind. You know, I was athletic kid growing up and I couldn't wait to go to PE to play whatever we were playing that day, because I wanted to be competitive about it. So it really really hurts my soul. But I'll let David go ahead now.

David Carmichael: 40:53

Yeah, I just, I think you know to quote I think it was Travis Tritt they feel like they're 10 feet tall and bulletproof these kids have been, and I blame the school systems to a large degree for it. They feel like there's no way we can hold them back, there's no way that they can have a negative consequence for it. I mean, I know when I went to school if you got a 93, it was a B. You know like there was no 10 point grading scale and there certainly was no. We're going to let this number be the lowest that you can enter into the grade book, so you don't give them a zero and there is that push for that. And then you look at kids report cards and I dare say if you went into any given middle school in the Commonwealth of Kentucky and you said I want a grade report, which they can't give you, but if they could, I want the grade reports from every kid in the school, you would have a minimum 80% of kids who, by and large, were getting A's and B's. Are we getting 80% of students getting proficient, distinguished on state testing Right? Absolutely not. Yeah, absolutely not. There's no reflection in the grading process to indicate what the kid knows. And I think a lot of that is because teachers are afraid to give the score the kid deserves for fear that the parent will come in upset and they don't have the backing of an administrator to say, no, that's what they earned, that's what they get. And so kids don't have that consequence for their inaction or their action. And so they've had, for the most part, all of these kids have had that from kindergarten on.

David Carmichael: 42:49

This is not a new thing, it's just something that's kind of been perpetuated. And so now we're at the point where what can we do? There's a culture of just pass them on to the next grade and maybe they'll grow out of it, instead of saying we're not going to tolerate that, you're going to get a zero, you're going to fail, and if that means you're retained, that's your choice. And I'm not a fan of retention, I don't like it. In some schools it's awful because you're sticking the kid right back in the same classroom because you've got a lot of singletons, and that's not ideal and it's torture on the teacher that just had them. But at the same time there has to be a consequence there, and maybe it doesn't have to be a consequence, maybe it needs to be a bigger scale conversation at a bigger level to say we're not going to do things that way anymore, like it's just not going to happen. So be advised, this is what's coming.

David Carmichael: 43:48

I know when I first started teaching, the first year I was teaching, and I gave a kid a D in band on a report card and I got the worst parent phone call I've ever gotten in my life, even as an administrator. Like that parent phone call was worse and it was how dare you give my, how can a kid get a D in band? And I said well, have them pick up their trumpet and play number 58 for you. I don't know what sounds came out on the other end, but I did get an apology a few days later.

David Carmichael: 44:24

And they said thank you for not giving them a failing grade instead of the D. You know, thank you for giving them a D, but at the same time, like there's that expectation of oh, band should be an easy A, take band it's an easy A. Well, that's a cultural thing. That's been the way it's been and the unfortunate thing is we've kind of gotten that way about everything. Like you should be able to pass just because you showed up, and I think that just when you've got kids that are lazy already, that just tells them why should you?

Josh Watkins: 44:55

There's less of the showing up as well. I see it in the in the sports realm. Kids will be like well, I'm, I'm just not going to practice today, or I'm not. You know, I'm not going today because I don't. I just don't feel like it. I might have mom or dad can pick me up or whatever. So I mean it's bleeding over into to everything Do you guys see students.

Mr. Webb: 45:22

I'm seeing an increase in this, where students will take vacation in the middle of a school year.

David Carmichael: 45:31

Yes, oh yeah, Absolutely. We had a. We had a parent actually up here just within the last week or so that was asking for a, an educational opportunity for them, which is what those are. You know, sometimes you can go on trips and they are very educational. And then there's the families that want to go to Disney world and give me the form so I can fill it out. But we had a parent that came and literally requested one of those forms and the student has been at school fewer days than they have been out.

Mr. Webb: 46:01

Wow.

David Carmichael: 46:02

Like they. They are so just habitually true and at this point, and some doctor excuses, some not, and so I mean it was denied and the parent called and said just so you know we're going anyway, it's that idea. It's like he said that there's, there's, the importance on education is is not there from the students or the adults in many cases. It's sad.

Josh Watkins: 46:32

Well, I haven't seen is good, no, go ahead Josh. I haven't seen.

Mr. Webb: 46:38

And don't worry about interrupting me, I'll just mute you.

Josh Watkins: 46:47

I haven't seen as much of that, just like the random in the middle of the school year. But what I have seen more of because, well, david knows, and you know from being there, we're, we don't have a whole lot of people running everything, so if our front office secretary has to run out, we're sitting there. And so I look through the parent notes that have been dropped off and and I feel like I keep going back to athletics. But it just feels so different than when I was growing up. But there was a note there says my student had a basketball game last night, so that's why they were out yesterday.

Mr. Webb: 47:28

Now what kind of message is that sending to the student?

Josh Watkins: 47:32

Right, you know, if something's a choice that you do after school, are we putting that priority over their education? That's kind of what I'm seeing like sports or priority over the education. But how many professional athletes do we have coming from the world in general?

Mr. Webb: 47:59

I muted you a few minutes ago, Josh. I'm sorry, did you say something?

Josh Watkins: 48:05

No, I was just working on playing the nose flute over here. I'm getting pretty proficient.

Mr. Webb: 48:13

You have to get good at it or David will give you a D.

David Carmichael: 48:16

That's right. I don't want to hear from your parent either.

Josh Watkins: 48:21

You're right, you gave that to me. I did not earn that in any way.

Mr. Webb: 48:24

Oh, that's a good point. He did say that you gave me, and that's something else that we hear. You know, if a kid does well, oh good job, billy, and if they do bad, like you, gave my kid a bad grade. So there's a lack of accountability there too, and I think one thing that goes along with student apathy is the lack of grit, and I'm seeing this as a trend too. What I'm seeing the trend is is that the first little bump in the road is like oh, I'm done, I'm gonna give you a hand up. Can I get some help over here? I will let them work in individually, pairs, groups of three, and I explained to them.

Mr. Webb: 49:06

Okay, now, if you struggle, I want you to talk about it with each other. And if you're still struggling, you know, look back in your notes and we do several examples. You know a lot of math is just do this. You know, here are the steps I'm going to show you. I'm going to tell you what they are. We're going to do several examples. We're going to do these same steps every time. Okay, now you do it on your own, and this is hard. Yeah, can I have some help over here? I mean, there's not even, not even an attempt sometimes. That's always been a thing, but I'm saying I see that getting worse and worse and worse.

Josh Watkins: 49:44

Well, I think that that's and I'm not going to make an excuse for it, but I think it's something that I don't know, that they have been taught how to really have the grit. You know, going back to social media, everything that they see is success. They're not seeing the steps that it took to get to that success. What did that person do? And you know teaching them. You know you're going to ask yourself first, you're going to ask a peer next and then you're going to ask me. And when you ask me, the first question I'm asking you is what steps have you taken so far? And if you can't tell me that, sorry, I'm not helping until you've you've gone through. Well, I've tried this, this, this and this and this is what I've got written down so far and I'm stuck. So making them I mean challenging them that way and really teaching them how to, I guess, self-evaluate. You know well, I've done all these things. I need to do something different. I'm not getting to where I need to be Right.

Mr. Webb: 50:58

Just getting them to write their work down. And I don't understand that, like, and I tell them you know, I need to see your work, I need to see your work, I need to see your work. So they'll come ask me for help and I'll say, okay, did you? Did you talk about it with your, with your partner? Yeah, we don't understand. Okay, did you look through your notes?

Mr. Webb: 51:21

And even if they did that which a lot of time no, and I'm like well, we did three examples, just like this. So go, you guys, go look at that and then let me know if you still need help. But even if we get past that point, it's like okay, so you've done all that. Let me see what you've done so far. And the page is blank and I'm like you know, I need to see some start, because we did do examples. We've got some track to run on. Or they just have an answer written down and I'm like how'd you get that answer? Oh, I just I did this and that. Like, well, I need to see. So, and I tell them every single day show your work so that if you make a mistake or if you struggle, I can help you, so we can figure out. Oh, here's where you got off track. But I mean it seems to be getting worse and worse. Just trying to get students to even show their work, just to write something down.

David Carmichael: 52:21

I think a good.

David Carmichael: 52:23

There's no concept of the idea of productive struggle. They just they just want to stop and move on to something else, or they'll raise their hand and ask for help and get through one problem and then wait until you're free to come back around for the next problem. Like it's they. There's no attempt to say OK, I think I have a little handle on this. Let me go ahead and try a few without someone helping me. That they just they want it done as easily as possible, and that idea of I'm going to, I'm going to hit failure over and over and then eventually reach success they don't want that. I mean.

David Carmichael: 53:00

I think back as simple as like video games. You know, when I was growing up I remember the video games like I got really good at the first world of Super Mario Brothers because I kept failing until I figured out how to do that, you know. And and they don't design games that way anymore, Like if they do, it's, this is story mode and then we're going to put another mode on here where you can just go in and have fun and not get your feelings hurt that you're not very successful at this game, you know, because otherwise they wouldn't sell the game. The kids would throw it in the trash and go to get something else. Like they don't want that. I have to learn how to be successful at this. It's just easier to throw their hands up and say I can't do it.

Mr. Webb: 53:45

So yeah, I'm not that familiar with games nowadays. When I was coming through school, checkers had just came out.

Josh Watkins: 53:55

They were just starting to carve the chess pieces. Oh my gosh, I think some of that can be negated with starting, like with the end in mind, so like with a math problem. If you're just going to write down an answer, here's the answer. Show me how to get there that way. You know, just writing it down is not enough, I mean and you could do that in really any subject, but I see it more in, like the writing classroom. If you're, you know, having them write a personal narrative, they're like I don't know, I don't know what to write about. It's your personal narrative, it's about anything you want it to be about. I just can't get started.

Mr. Webb: 54:46

Can it be about getting a dub on Fortnite?

David Carmichael: 54:51

Absolutely. You just said you didn't know anything about gaming.

Mr. Webb: 54:57

So switching gears just a little bit because I want to make sure and get into this. This is something that you had mentioned I believe it was David that mentioned this in a text about the lack of resources and textbooks etc. That aren't full of indoctrination, that are on approved vendor lists. Oh yeah, so there's a couple of things there First of all, the lack of resources that aren't full of indoctrination, and the second part is that are on approved vendor lists. So is that a two-parter? Are there good resources that just aren't on approved lists, or is it just difficult to find a period?

David Carmichael: 55:42

I think there's some actually really good materials out there and again, I know I don't have to plug your show to your listeners, but you've had some people on that are working on curriculum that are trying to get some of just the old facts that need to be presented out there that doesn't have any sort of slant to it, that doesn't have any sort of indoctrination in it. The problem with that is most of the people that are doing that are doing that themselves or maybe with a small group or maybe with some funding to kind of help. But then you have the second hurdle, which is these approved vendor lists, and it's a racket. The people that want their products to be purchased have to pay in to get that on that, to get their name on that list. They have to pay a yearly fee to be on that list and then the schools are required to purchase things only off of those lists. And so for people who are working to create a curriculum that could be marketed out there for schools to use, that are good products, they don't necessarily have the capital to go into all these different states and to pay these fees.

David Carmichael: 56:56

I know in Kentucky it's a regional thing that they have to pay in to and to say we've got all this extra funding, they're spending what they have to create the documents, to create the curriculum, and so you know to have to pay that to. To be on those lists and then hope schools will seek it out is a huge struggle and and yeah, I'm fully aware of some great curriculum that's out there that that just we couldn't get if we wanted to get it here, simply because it's not going to be on that approved vendor list. And if we said, hey, board of Education, we'd like to purchase these, these materials, we we. Well, you've got to get three competitive, competing bids and you know, obviously those are going to be undercut to serve schools and then you have to go through all those hoops. It is made difficult so that the textbooks and the curriculum, that the powers that be and I mean on a probably national level are the ones that we're going to have to choose from.

Mr. Webb: 58:06

If you have to scary to be on an approved vendor list. Doesn't that automatically make it more difficult? Or doesn't automatically make it more favorable for these huge companies that it's just a drop in the bucket?

David Carmichael: 58:24

100% it does. I know, when I was in the band director world, you know the, the, the instrument shops that sell the kids the instruments, had to pay in to get on that that list. And then I mean I knew the owner of one of them and he said, yeah, I hate this because I'm having to raise my rates in order to pay our company to pay the fee to be on that list, like it's, it's a racket and and I don't know that that exists in every state, but I know it exists, at least in ours, and and it's difficult to get past that, which is unfortunate.

Mr. Webb: 59:00

So again, my takeaway there is that David listens to the podcast.

Mr. Webb: 59:07

I'm all joking aside.

Mr. Webb: 59:10

And I'll probably leave somebody out and I hate to do that, but just off the top, my head, patrick Garrison with the true corrective. I had him on. That was one of the first probably 10 episodes. I guess he's going through social study curriculum and then, I think, moving on to others and Ted Lam I had him on the podcast. He has dug into primary sources. He's also a social studies or history teacher, so he's like completely going around that purchase curriculum and he's using primary sources to teach. And I just found out that Ted Lam is going to be working with Patrick Garrison at true corrective. I can't wait to see what they come up with together. But episode 28 was with Beanie Gohagen of freedom and education and one of the things they're doing is they're going through curriculum and finding good curriculum. Whereas some resources are, they're creating their own. They're actually sifting through all the curriculum out there to be able to suggest what curriculum is good for and what doesn't push a liberal agenda. So, freedomandedorg, I'll plug them because I think that's a great idea.

David Carmichael: 1:00:38

That's exciting, that would be tremendous.

Mr. Webb: 1:00:43

So tell me more about how you guys listen to my podcast.

David Carmichael: 1:00:50

Go ahead.

Mr. Webb: 1:00:50

Josh.

Josh Watkins: 1:00:51

I've been there, josh. Yeah, I listen every time that I have a free second. Okay, it's all I listen to. I don't even watch TV anymore because I listen to the podcast. So much Repeat old episodes, yes, it's like Seinfeld to me. I just can't stop. Yeah, the, the.

Mr. Webb: 1:01:11

BS oh, meter on this is going off the scale again.

Mr. Webb: 1:01:20

Some of these, some of these topics as I'm looking through, you know, lack of grit. We talked about that. Oh, adverse effects of virtual learning. I thought that was a great, a great topic there. David, you came up with that too. Adverse effects of virtual learning during and post COVID. So what? What have you guys seen there?

David Carmichael: 1:01:46

I'll start and then Josh can chime in. I guess. Yeah, I think obviously post COVID we realized that you know, teachers teach students, computers do not. And most schools, when we went virtual for the first time and everyone is struggling to get computers to be one to one, realized a little too late that the idea of trying to push curriculum out virtually through a computer based online program or that sort of thing, just it wasn't as effective and unfortunately, I think a lot are. I think a lot of schools right now are pushing virtual learning so they can keep enrollment numbers up because that student still counts If they're in that virtual school, when really it's just doing a disservice to the kid.

David Carmichael: 1:02:40

I think it I don't remember it was a Super Bowl commercial or if it was just a commercial on TV, but it was probably four or five years ago in my mind, which probably means it was more like 10 or 15. Because I'm getting old and the years go by quick. But I remember a commercial where it had these, these, these young kids and they split them off into two like you know rooms where obviously you've got a controlled group in both and one group like we're watching YouTube videos on on how to tie a tie and and how to you know be respectful to ladies and how to change the oil in a car. And then in the other room there were fathers teaching their sons how to tie a tie, how to change the oil in a car, how to be respectful to a lady. And then they interviewed these kids and I mean every time, obviously, as you would expect, the kids that had their dads teaching them those things just by far outperformed. And the kids that had watched the videos just stay there looking at them like I don't know, I have no idea what to do. And that's it with.

David Carmichael: 1:03:47

Computers need to be seen as an aid. It, in my eyes, it is a substitute for paper and pencil or it is a substitute for, maybe, a textbook. Where you're, you're referencing the material, but as far as teaching goes, that we go to school for a reason, we're perfect in this profession, for a reason, it's not a job to to show. Say everyone read page three and then do these questions. Anyone can do that. It takes teachers, it takes people with a passion for changing kids lives who are going to take the time and and and work the curriculum to make it meaningful and to make it make sense. And when you take the people out of the equation and rely solely on a piece of technology to give that to them, it's such a disservice to those kids and it's just. It's so frustrating and disheartening to me see so many school systems really push that, that mode of learning, as the chief mode of instruction, and I do worry what it will do to the next generation of learners if that's where the bulk of their teaching is coming from.

Josh Watkins: 1:05:02

And I wish honestly that I could go back and to my first years of teaching and tell myself how good it is there compared to now when we've got one to one. Because, David, you know as well as I do, part of your day is spent turning in tech tickets because of broken computers not from. You know, they were working so, so hard on their math.

David Carmichael: 1:05:33

They were talking so hard, the keys just jumped off.

Josh Watkins: 1:05:36

Yeah, they just jumped right off of the computer that you know they're using them for other things, and anytime I go to work on a kid's computer though I've got a close out of 500 tabs of games before I can, you know, actually work and look at what I've got in front of me.

Josh Watkins: 1:05:55

So we've shifted to, like David said, we're sometimes not using it as just an aid anymore, and that's doing a disservice. And, like you said, being shown how to do something and physically doing it are a lot different than doing it on on a computer or just watching a video about it and doing it. I think that you have to. I know even from my personal experience. Yeah, I learned a lot of things through YouTube or how to do things through YouTube, but I'm doing them as, as it happens, I'm not watching a video and then cutting it off and saying, all right time to go do itself, and I don't think kids have that ability to do as they go, to learn as they're going, and so they have to be taught how to do that. And you don't get taught how to do that unless you've got a teacher. They're helping you along the way.

Mr. Webb: 1:07:02

Right, I felt with COVID. You know it was a necessity. Kids were suddenly out of school and schools decided okay, we need to go virtual. So we had to do something. You know you couldn't just and I'm sure if we could go back and do things over again and when I say we, I mean like from the classroom through the district on up to the state and maybe even national levels I'm sure we'd do things differently. But part of it was a necessity that post COVID we kind of leaned on.

David Carmichael: 1:07:37

I guarantee there's no educator in the country that says, yeah, the best year of my teaching career was that year. You know that's, that's when I gave my best instruction. Pretty confident that was everyone's worst.

Josh Watkins: 1:07:51

Well, you're probably right on that. The thing is too. It was we were hit with it so quickly that it was like, oh, this is the best option to kind of you know, shooting from the hip type deal, whereas really, you know, looking back, I think, like we did here, was going to, you know, part days where we have this half of the county and then part days where we have this other half. We had plenty of space and I think everybody could have. We could have still gone in that limited capacity, you know, instead of knee jerk reaction to technology for everybody right.

Josh Watkins: 1:08:34

Not everybody had that great of access with a knee jerk reaction, you know.

Mr. Webb: 1:08:40

Now I'll tell you this is telling, excuse me, this is telling on myself here, but before, like a few years before COVID, I started making videos and I would use videos, you know, to supplement what I was doing in the classroom and, like for each, I was trying to build up excuse me unit by unit, so I would record myself teaching and then I would I would post that. So if students were at home, if they were sick, they could watch the video that I posted in Google classroom and they wouldn't have to miss anything. And sometimes I recorded before school, to be humorous, like I did a British, I did a British accent on one video and had like a costume and another one I had a NYPD cap on in sunglasses and I said we're here to learn about statistics, which I'm not real sure is a New York accent anyway. But so for me oh, I've got to tell you a funny story as soon as I finish this For me it started out like I started making videos. It wasn't to replace myself, I was just making videos, you know, to supplement what I was doing and hopefully building up where I had videos for each lesson so if a kid was at home they didn't have to get behind. If I got sick for a couple of days, classroom work didn't have to stop. I could just post that on Google classroom and that it was great. And then when COVID hit, I already had these videos made. So I mean that was wonderful for me. I mean not not having the kids there, but I mean it wasn't as difficult on me having to make that switch because I had already been making videos. I hadn't made it for every lesson so I did have to, you know, do some work there behind the scenes to get that, but it was nice to have that and to be able to put that out there for the students.

Mr. Webb: 1:10:47

And then when the students came back and we were on an AB schedule for a while where, you know, half the students from the county were there on like a Monday, wednesday, and then the other half was there on Tuesday, thursday, where I could, you know I could we could do a lesson on proportions and I could teach to the kids that were in the classroom and the ones at home could watch the video about that topic, and not we could still, even though half was at school, half was at home, we could kind of still stay on pace. And this is the part that I was going to mention where I'm telling on myself. Once the kids were back at the classroom, I started relying on those videos and I got to a point where I kind of felt lazy. I'm like, what am I doing? You know, these kids are back in the class. I mean, I wouldn't do it every day, but I caught myself, you know, on a day where maybe I was tired or had a lot on my mind like, yeah, I've already got a video made for this lesson, I'll just let the kids watch that. So I've really tried to get away from that and just use it very sparingly now, which was the original intent.

Mr. Webb: 1:11:57

Okay, so here's the story. I was afraid I forget, I remember. So I did this, this character. On this one video I introduced my British cousin I don't even remember what the name was. So I had, I was recording it with a Chromebook and the Chromebook was on me and the smart board.

Mr. Webb: 1:12:20

So I said, and here's my cousin from England. I paused the video and then walked around, put a hat and a scarf on, unpause the video and, like, I exited from the to the right and then my cousin from England came in from the left. So to the students it looked like I just walked off and this guy walked on and I started talking in a British accent. Well, the kids love that. They hung on my every word, and this is what I mean. Like you can be creative, you can usually sing in a creative way. So they hung on my every word. And this, this one student, this one part of the video. I said good day, sir. So I'm walking around, the kids are. You know they're watching this video and they've got their headphones on and you know what, when headphones are up too loud, how you can kind of hear through the head.

Mr. Webb: 1:13:14

So I hear good day, good day, good day, yes Day. So I'm like what is going on here? So I had a student that he was sitting there. He was dying laughing.

Mr. Webb: 1:13:29

And he was, he had that on loop, he was listening to one part, good day. So I said you know, I'm glad you think that's funny, but you know, make make these videos to be interesting. But if you, you know, if you're off tasks, that makes me wonder if I should do this or not. So just go ahead and, you know, get back, get focus, get back on task. He's like I'm sorry, Mr Webb, I'm sorry. So.

Mr. Webb: 1:13:57

I'm walking around the room. A few minutes later I hear yeah. Good day he had figured out that you can slow the video down. Yes, he was still listening to that. He just had it on like half speed. Oh my gosh, it was so funny.

Mr. Webb: 1:14:20

But you know, for a lot, a lot of these, these things that frustrate us, we've got stories like that that just we'll never forget. Some of the stories are funny, some are, you know, heartwarming. Sometimes you know we say this but we really mean it, like if I could just help one student. Sometimes you have a rough year and then you find out at the end of the year maybe this kid that you thought you weren't getting through to that lets you know that you made a difference. So share with me if you guys have a story like that, or maybe just a funny story. But I feel like we should end on a positive note, since it is Christmas time and this episode is coming out around Christmas.

Josh Watkins: 1:15:07

So mine would come from, when it was David's first year as our administrator in the building and I had the student there who was a massive behavior issue, to the point of kind of taking over class and then would just leave, and it became a power struggle.

Josh Watkins: 1:15:32

Well, david helped me realize what the underlying issue was and he shared that with me, to which really opened my eyes to really think about how I was approaching a situation before I went to, you know, level 1000.

Josh Watkins: 1:15:54

And after that situation happened, I turned around, I talked to the student, I apologized and then, throughout the year, you know, things started really turning around and at the end of that year, that student made a huge banner for me in my room, blew up a bunch of balloons, put them in my room and told me how much he enjoyed my class. And then, to this day, every time that she sees me, she will come up to me and we will have a conversation and she'll say do you remember me? I'm your favorite student and we just, you know it's a great connection, but one that would have never happened had you know we, or Dave, had been thinking in a different way than me. So, using each other, we were able to help that student and now you know that student's being successful. So that's just one that has stuck with me and I'll never forget. That's awesome.

Mr. Webb: 1:16:59

You probably don't realize the full effect of your positive influence on that student.

Josh Watkins: 1:17:08

No, but it's good seeing them out in the community and being successful. You know, having a job. I consider that being successful, you're contributing to society, Right.

Mr. Webb: 1:17:23

All right, david, your turn. David's story starts out with well, I gave a kid a D.

David Carmichael: 1:17:31

I was going to say, you know, to start with, I just like I'm touched that Josh's story that is the best of his career involves me. Checks in the mail, sir. Checks in the mail.

Mr. Webb: 1:17:49

Wait, I want to change my story.

David Carmichael: 1:17:55

I think probably mine. I remember, and I think it was either my first or second year. I think it was maybe my second year of teaching I had a young lady in one of my classes and Josh said earlier, you know it is, it's all about the relationships we form with these kids. I remember we hadn't been in school for more than two weeks and a kid just did something ridiculous in class and I laid into him. I scared this poor young girl Just like beside herself, upset, and I wasn't quite sure how to make. I could tell that I'd rattled her, but I wasn't sure how to make that right. And so it was just this constant thing of I was having to keep myself in check because I didn't want to have that reaction with her again.

David Carmichael: 1:18:51

And you know, we never know with kids what's happened in their past. And I thought you know, bless, you know, here's this girl who you know, who knows, you know, maybe she's got a verbally abusive father and now I look like this big bad guy who's an awful person. So always second guessing, and I had that student in band and ended up having that same student over the course of the next seven years, three at the middle school and then helping out at the high school the next four years and I always worried about that relationship with that kid and like it was always respectful and good and she would typically smile and you know, and be polite but wasn't really vocal in talking and you know, really getting to know me a little bit and I tried along the way to try to help things out there. That student was actually one of our faculty members' child and this past April I officiated the wedding between her and her husband, who was also a former student of mine.

Josh Watkins: 1:19:58

That's awesome.

David Carmichael: 1:19:59

They came by the school my last year there and asked if I would be willing to do that for them and I thought, man, here's this kid who I don't know if the impression I made was, you know, an awful one or not, and ended up being one of the people that she wanted to attend her wedding. Years after that she left my room, so I used that one just to point out, you know we don't know sometimes the impressions that we make on kids and you know to work to. You know, even if I may not have messed up, I may have just caught her off guard that day but the fact that you know it was important to me. It's still important for me to make the relationship with these kids one that where they feel like they can respect and trust and be comfortable around me, to know that at least I did that with one kid. You know it's like you said at the beginning, joey. You know it's if I know I've made an impression and helped one kid and everyone does that how many kids are we helping? And so that's one that just. I mean.

David Carmichael: 1:21:07

You talk about a good summer. I got there to that wedding and of course you know it was. I looked out across the crowd and it was all these former kids because they were all schoolmates. You know that were there. That age group, that's awesome. It was just such a surreal moment to think. You know, here I am with. It's almost like my old class, you know, back here and it was just probably one of the even though it wasn't during the school day and it wasn't associated with school one of the more rewarding things that's happened in my career. That's awesome.

Mr. Webb: 1:21:40

Well, I'm glad I asked you guys that question and I wasn't going to share anything because I've done that on, you know, talked about things on previous episodes. But I thought it's something I do want to share because this goes back to those students. When we worked together the three of us we worked at the same school, the group of sixth graders that I had, the last group that I had when I went and left that school to teach close to home, I went back for their eighth grade graduation. I took a half day off work, you know, took half a personal day so that I could go to their eighth grade graduation. You guys were there. You may remember it, you may not. Yeah, but those kids were so excited to see me and I was way more excited to see them, you know, because I just really had a connection with them and I told them that I would be at their senior, when they graduate high school, I'll be there. Well, I remembered that promise. I didn't know if they remembered it or not.

Mr. Webb: 1:22:45

And so fast forward to last year, when those kids were graduating high school, my daughter had a band event and so I had to make a choice. Like I'll have to miss this band event to go to what I promised these kids. You know I would go to their graduation. Well, my daughter. She's like no, dad, you've got to go to that. You told you promised them. You know she knew the story behind that and I'm like are you sure? And she's like, yeah, this is just one thing, you go to that please. So that made me feel better. I'm like, ok, she's OK with it. So I'll go thinking you know there's going to be a few that maybe remember who I am. And it was one of the best experiences for me. I had a group of kids come up to I call them kids, but they were graduating high school. That came up to me and said Mr Web, I can't believe you're here. We've been talking about you all week. You promised us that you'd be here, starting to get a little choked up guys.

Mr. Webb: 1:24:01

Edit that out too.

Mr. Webb: 1:24:02

But they said you promised us you'd be here and you're here. We've been talking about this all week. I couldn't believe it, you know. I thought you know these kids half of them aren't even going to remember me, or so I thought, no, did they remember? But they'd been talking that week and they remembered the promise that I made him. So it was, it was just. It was an amazing feeling.

David Carmichael: 1:24:26

And again, that just goes to show the the the impact that you had on them. I saw a lot of those pictures on Facebook and and some of those kids were smiling bigger with you than they were with their parents and I think that's because, like, you meant that much to them and then to follow through on that Anyone that knows you know is that you pretty much will always follow through on what you say. That's one of the things I've always admired about you. So I like, when I saw those pictures, I thought, man, that's awesome and it was.

Mr. Webb: 1:24:56

I appreciate it. It was awesome and I feel like I got more out of it than they did. But the fact that they got a lot out of it, that just it's just icing on the cake, so it's a great way to end this special holiday episode of the conservative classroom. I usually end the episode with a key takeaway. Is there something you guys want to leave with the listeners as the most? If they don't remember anything else about this episode, what is it you want them to remember?

Josh Watkins: 1:25:32

I think the what we just talked about, the stories that we just told, the relationships matter, and if you build the relationships, the students will learn. Let the learning come after, but build the relationship first and work hard to build it. Yeah and I'd echo that.

David Carmichael: 1:25:54

I think Josh is 100% right and and I would just add to that not only with the students, but also with each other Like I haven't had an evening this fun in a while. It's been so awesome to catch up with the two of you guys and it's just. It's been wonderful to chat with both of you, and Joey says often that you are not alone out there in the conservative world. There's a lot of us like that and it's it's nice to be reunited with a couple of you guys that I respect and love so much as friends and and just keep fighting the good fight, folks. There's a whole lot of us out there. Don't ever feel like you're on your own. Joey will haunt you in your dreams and Josh will be listening to it on repeat in his podcast.

Josh Watkins: 1:26:44

Oh man, is it weird. If I'm going to listen in the shower, he's still.

Mr. Webb: 1:26:48

Googling what's a podcast?

Josh Watkins: 1:26:56

So, is that something I have to download.

Mr. Webb: 1:27:02

Oh my gosh. Well, I'll send you a link, Josh.

Josh Watkins: 1:27:05

Oh, OK, I appreciate that, no problem.

Mr. Webb: 1:27:08

I've sent you a link every week since I started the podcast. I'm still waiting for you to respond. All joking aside, this has been great. I so appreciate you guys coming on the podcast. And as I was looking towards Christmas break and I've been doing a lot of interviews trying to get several weeks ahead so that when Christmas break gets here, you know, I can totally be with my family and be present with them, so I thought, ok, I need an episode Christmas week. So I reached out to you guys a few weeks ago because I thought, you know, it'd be awesome if, instead of interviewing a guest, I could just have you guys on and just catch up on old times and talk about education, and it has far exceeded my expectations and the podcast length of my previous episodes. We're getting into Joe Rogan territory here. See, joe Rogan has a podcast. Josh, he's a podcaster.

Josh Watkins: 1:28:17

I don't even know who Joe Rogan is. Was he? Did he used to be on Fear Factory?

Mr. Webb: 1:28:28

Oh my gosh.

Mr. Webb: 1:28:30

Hey, I love you guys. It sounds corny, but it's true. You guys are more than just colleagues and friends, your mentors. I learned a lot working with you and I appreciate you guys joining me on the podcast Thoroughly enjoyed it guys.

David Carmichael: 1:28:47

Yeah, thanks for having us, man.

Josh Watkins: 1:28:48

No problem. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas, absolutely.

Mr. Webb: 1:28:53

Oh, I muted you again, Josh. I'm sorry.

Josh Watkins: 1:29:00

Just had to get one more, just one more dig.

Mr. Webb: 1:29:07

That's it for today's episode of The Conservative Classroom. Thank you for tuning in and I hope you enjoyed it and learned something. If you liked what you heard, please don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. That would really help the podcast out. Most importantly, share this podcast with a like-minded educator, parent or patriot. You can also connect with us on social media and share your thoughts on today's topic by sending me an email at TheConservativeClassroom@gmail. com. We'd love to hear from you.

Mr. Webb: 1:29:44

If you feel that education without indoctrination and teaching the truth is important to preserve traditional values, then support my efforts to keep the conservative classroom running.

Mr. Webb: 1:29:56

I'm a full-time teacher and dad and part-time podcaster. I invest a lot of hours at my own hard-earned money each week to bring you quality content, but I need your help Check out the links in the show notes and on the website to support the podcast with a one-time or recurring monthly donations. Every little bit helps. You can also visit our merch store to get your own clothing, coffee mugs, stickers, backpacks, book bags and more with the conservative classroom logo or one of our many other conservative slogans, such as age appropriate does not equal banning books. Defund the teacher's unions. Keep politics out of the classroom and more. If you want to support common sense and education without pushing your politics, check out our products with the Red Schoolhouse logo on it. We know it's hard to be openly conservative in some school districts, but your silent show of support will let you know that you are doing the right thing. Until next time, this is, Mr. Webb, reminding you that you are not alone. See you next time on The Conservative Classroom. Teaching the truth. Preserving our values.