Mr. Webb: 0:00

What effect does love and nurturing have on our children and our students? What effect does the lack of love and nurturing have on our children and students, and what can we do as teachers to help fill in the gap for those students who don't have the love and nurturing that they need at home? Welcome to The Conservative Classroom, where we're teaching the truth and preserving our values. I'm your host, Mr. Webb, and I'm glad you're here. This podcast is a haven for conservative educators, parents and patriots like you, who believe in the importance of free speech, traditional values and education without indoctrination. Each week, we dive into issues that are plaguing our education system and keeping you up at night. In each episode, we offer common sense ideas to improve education in our classrooms and communities.

Mr. Webb: 1:01

You may feel like you're the last conservative educator or parent, but I want you to know that you are not alone. By the way, if you like what you hear today, please share this podcast with a like-minded educator, parent or patron. Together, we can teach the truth and preserve our values. Today's episode is all about love, and in today's episode, we talk with the psychiatrist about love and the many forms of that and how it affects our students. Now let's get started. Today, we welcome a special guest back to the conservative classroom Dr. Timothy Cordes. Dr. Cordes joined us in episode 37, the mental health crisis in education, and he's back today to talk to us about love on this special Valentine's Day episode. So, Dr. Cordes, thank you so much for coming back on the show.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 2:01

Sure, I'm glad to be here and I would love to talk about love, but I want to say I'm not an expert on love I don't know if any of us are, or you know but I'm glad to be here and talk about it.

Mr. Webb: 2:17

Well, for the folks that missed our previous episode, can you tell us who you are and what you do?

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 2:25

Sure. So I'm a psychiatrist. I trained in general psychiatry and then learned more on addiction psychiatry, so I treat folks with both of those kinds of problems. I've worked seeing folks everywhere from 18 to 80, most recently working with college students. So that's my gig. And I have a family, two boys. I'm married and that's what I know of love.

Mr. Webb: 2:57

And that's enough. And you have a unique perspective on the psychology and how love, or the lack of love, might affect people. So first of all, let's start out with maybe the toughest question what is love?

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 3:17

Oh, my goodness, I mean it's funny that you know, we talk about it, we recognize it, but I think we're still working out what it is. What's interesting is the Greeks, the ancient Greeks, had multiple different words for love. They had the sort of the filial love, like the romantic love arrows. They had a goth, which is a more encompassing love, and so I think when we use the English word love, you know we first of all to slow it down and say you know what is this and which kind are we talking about? Because you know you watch a movie, you assume love is romantic, and we know there's much more to love than that.

Mr. Webb: 4:06

Right, there's different types of love, the type of love two people have when they fall in love. I want to start with that. How do, why do people fall in love and how do they fall out of love? Oh my goodness.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 4:21

So when people fall in love, the part of the thought is that you know there's some sort of connection in what we call ego boundaries, that's where do I end and you begin sort of blur or fall. And that's the infatuation where we get sort of really aware of the other but sort of drawn by the sameness. But over time we realize that some of the strongest, best relationships are people who could be independent but choose to be together, versus that more dependent early phase, for example, and falling out of love is. You know, that's tricky too, because it also plays into questions, like you know are we actively maintaining a relationship? What are we doing? What's getting in the way? And I think it's also that transition from romantic to other forms of love that often can happen and sustain a relationship.

Mr. Webb: 5:28

And for you and my listeners, you might be thinking no, this is the conservative classroom. What does this have to do with teaching and students and education in the classroom? And that's kind of what I'm getting to Do. Parents falling out of love have an effect on their children.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 5:49

That's a great question. So we know that kids who grow up in, you know, angry, contentious, you know maybe even hostile families they don't do well, that's not good. But we also know statistically that kids who grow up in single family homes are at higher risk of, you know, not graduating high school and higher risk of mental health problems. You know two parent households often are more likely to be above the poverty line. So we know that kids who don't have modeled parental love, either practically or because they don't have that model, do do worse, worse off than other kids.

Mr. Webb: 6:38

So I think you said hostile environment, so I never really thought about a hostile environment. With the parents together, of course. I've thought about how that can be bad, but also a one parent household, how that can have some bad effects.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 6:57

Yeah.

Mr. Webb: 6:58

So I think it's difficult, you know, for the parents listening that might be going through some things. That seems like it would be difficult to make that decision what's best for the kids? But I think that's, or maybe it's not. You tell me what your opinion is. Should that be the guiding factor what is best for the kids?

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 7:22

It's a great, it's a very important thing, but, for example, if a you know a spouse is being abused by the other spouses, there would be no way you could ask them to stay for the kids. You know there's a lot of things in play. I think what's important, though, is, if a couple decides to separate or divorce, that they realize that they both have an interest in the children and can cooperate as co-parents and do that well, so that the kids aren't caught in the middle. I think you know when it's necessary. You know to separate, I think, making sure that the grownups are still grownups and still caring for the kids, although not in the same household you know.

Mr. Webb: 8:06

Right, that's a good point. What role does love and nurturing play in a student's, I guess, mental and emotional development?

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 8:15

Yeah.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 8:16

So this is interesting.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 8:18

There were studies done you couldn't do them these days, but in the last century where they actually, you know, this is monkeys, it's not people, but they separated baby monkeys from their mothers and then they provided the monkey a wire frame model of a mother with a bottle so it could get its nutrition and sort of a fluffy cloth mother and the babies would hang out with the soft, you know comfortable mother and only go to the other one when it wanted to eat.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 8:54

And the idea was that when we love a child, we provide them with comfort and a home base that they can explore the world from, and so that nurturing love helps them grow. And, you know, when they see themselves reflected in an adult who loves them and can sort of come back and check in with how things are going as they explore the world, you know that the distance gets further, the check-ins get less frequent, but they still, you know, need to touch base and reconnect with someone in their lives to do that. And that's sort of how you know we think nurturing helps people. Over time they get a secure base to explore the world. It's not preventing problems necessarily, but giving them the tools to go out and engage with the wider world.

Mr. Webb: 9:54

And does the amount of love a child has growing up? Does that affect their emotional intelligence? And maybe first we should define what is emotional intelligence?

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 10:06

Yeah, emotional intelligence is could be thought of as the way to recognize what you're feeling, take you know age appropriate steps to manage it and be able to see emotion in others and respond to that appropriately. So it's, I know what I got. I know what you got. Let's work together in a healthy way. And so, yeah, certainly, being cared for and nurtured fosters emotional intelligence, because they get to practice it with somebody who has their best interest in mind. You know, in other situations, you know young people might learn to suppress their feelings because they know if they ask for something or if they speak up, they're going to get shut down, and you know there's all kinds of ways that can go awry. But certainly a relationship with a nurturing adult can bring about more emotional intelligence.

Mr. Webb: 11:04

How does love and nurturing in general, or the lack, of affect students at school?

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 11:13

Yeah, I think you know, at school the first set of behaviors a child learns is from the home. So how they relate in school is probably going to model off what they've seen, and if home is not nurturing then they may be anxious about going home. Or we also see that you know kids who don't get their needs met at home. You know, might, you know, connects in a special way with it, a healthy special way with a teacher who sees something in them and respects them, and the kids may make those connections that they don't have at home. In school too Could go the other way, where the child realizes they can get attention by acting up too, and so there's all kinds of ways that can manifest.

Mr. Webb: 12:08

So how important is it do you think, for teachers to be nurturing at school? Because as a teacher, sometimes we, sometimes you can tell which students maybe don't have that environment at home, Sometimes you can't tell. So how important is it for teachers to provide that nurturing environment at school?

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 12:34

Yeah, yeah, nurturing is, you know it's an interesting word because it's, you know, it's promoting growth and you know, at whatever age, you know, asking things, you know encouraging having students stretch, you know, is also, you know, a part of nurturing. So you know it's not letting people off the hook, for example. But yeah, I think it's important for teachers to try to do that within, you know, within the boundaries of what makes sense and, you know, with kids in classroom management, I think that makes a lot of sense.

Mr. Webb: 13:11

Now I'm sure it affects students differently at different ages and different educational levels, such as you know, it affects grade school students different than middle school and those different than high school and college. Can you give us a sense of how? Now? I said love and nurturing and I know there's a difference, but to me they go hand in hand. So how does love and nurturing affect students at different age levels?

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 13:41

Yeah, so it relates to the developmental tasks that kids are sort of going through as they grow up. You know at first day you know kids need to learn. You know the world is a relatively safe place that I can explore, you know. And then later on there you know I can do things, you know it's sort of the grade school you know task and the nurturing can help them with that. And then you know as you move into adolescence it's more you know who am I and who am I in relation to others, and the peer group and peer group support take on more of a role in that love and nurturing, you know, and that continues on to to young adulthood too. So I think that's one way I think about it.

Mr. Webb: 14:27

You mentioned something interesting when I reached out to you about making this episode, excuse me, so I'm thinking about that a little bit and I hope I'm not stepping away from the direction we're going.

Mr. Webb: 14:42

But you mentioned something, something, the idea of love as a commandment versus a feeling, and that made me think of a Stephen Covey. In his book the Seven Habits, or the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, he said love is a verb and love the feeling is a fruit of love the verb. And I remember in that example that he used, he had one of his, someone at a talk that he gave or maybe it was a fan, I'm not sure. Come up to him, you know, talking about how this guy and his wife, they just don't love each other anymore. And so Stephen Covey was saying, well, love her. And he's like well, you don't understand, we just don't love each other. Well, love her. So when you said the idea of love as a commandment versus love as a feeling, it made me think of that. So talk to us about the idea of love as a commandment versus a feeling.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 15:51

Sure. So I go back to the Bible on this. And you know Jesus gave his greatest commandments, you know, which involve love, and one of them is love your neighbor as yourself. It was a command you know and, interestingly enough, if you I don't know the Greek, but I came across this if you look in Corinthians where Paul describes love, you know love is patient, love is kind, slow to anger, et cetera. If you were to read that in the original Greek, apparently the words we write as adjectives in English are actually verbs as well 15 verbs there. So it goes along with this notion that love is a choice and love is an action.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 16:36

What I find interesting is this connects with modern cognitive theory in psychology. So this guy, aaron Beck, sort of developed cognitive therapy. The notion is that our thinking, our feelings and our behavior are all connected and by doing things or changing what we think, we can influence our feelings. You know, I had an old advisor. He would always say feelings are incredibly unreliable. You know. So if you waited until you felt love, you know that's quite different than saying I'm going to act lovingly or I'm going to think lovingly, and then you know, as Stephen Covey says, that the feeling can come from the action.

Mr. Webb: 17:25

Right. The feeling can come from the action. I think that's so important. How can a teacher love their students in a biblical sense, to help them, especially in light of the fact that the school setting might be the only place they get love or they feel loved all day? They might not have that at home.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 17:54

Yeah, I think, once again, it's you know, it's the action. You know they'll know, know we're Christians by our love. Right, it's the act, the activity. I think and one of the ways I think about this is if I'm going to make a mistake in what I do, professionally, for example, it's going to be on the side of love. I give somebody a little too much benefit of the doubt. I, you know, I'm extra patient. One more try. You know, if I make an error, it's going to be on that side of things and I think that's maybe a way we can model and approach it for the people in our lives, including, you know, kids in the classroom.

Mr. Webb: 18:41

You talk to college students or you deal with college students. Is that correct? Yeah, yeah, Okay. What can you share with us? A story or maybe some, some trends that you see, issues that college students have that they've shared with you that deal with this topic?

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 19:04

Yeah, a lot of what they're dealing with can be about. You know who they are, who they may feel love for in maybe a romantic sense, and also you know how they want to start to be more adult with their parents. You know some of them haven't had the most loving relationships. You know as some of them want to reset, some of them want a healthy stepping way and those are some of the challenges that they face.

Mr. Webb: 19:39

Our school counselor recently told us us meaning the other teachers at the school was telling us that some we don't realize what effect we have on students that she talks to students that sometimes really having a tough time and they say, you know, a smile from a teacher was all that got him through that day. They felt that's all that got him through. You know, they were, they were on a low limb and then just a smile or a kind gesture made all the difference. Do you have similar stories?

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 20:13

Yeah, I think that I think that makes it makes a lot of sense. You know I'll have patients and their check ins with me, you know. You know we may not even do you know psychiatrists who may not even be doing anything with medication, but just the chance to be heard and, and you know, validated and all that you know gives them, give them, gives them something. This is a little different, but my last seeing eye dog was an incredibly sweet dog who had a tail wag for everybody and when patients would come in and see me, they would, they would get the boost by just having the, you know the, the wag in the acknowledgement, just from that unconditional regard that I think the patients found helpful to.

Mr. Webb: 21:06

Is there anything that we've left out that you'd like to talk about?

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 21:11

Yeah, I think one thing that I, that I think of a lot, is being aware of and understanding the the other as an individual, with you know, with needs and and sometimes it's hard to acknowledge people have changed or grown or or even give them forgiveness when needed, and you know, and love helps us do those things. And so when we love someone, you know we're loving the person they are, but also, you know, especially as a teacher or a parent, we're also loving the person that they could be someday. We don't know quite know who that is, but we have a responsibility to both and I think you know I try to keep that in mind.

Mr. Webb: 21:59

Loving the person they are. Someday, that's great. Sometimes, as a teacher, if we're having a bad day, especially, and maybe students behavior hasn't been what we wanted it to be by the end of the day, I had to use the term. You know students are starting to get on your nerves, but that does happen sometimes and I think sometimes I know myself personally. Sometimes we tend to get a little short I'd say short tempered. That's not what I mean, but we have less patience, I guess, at the end of the day, and I think it's important for us to remember what students could be going through that we don't know about and to love them for who they could be someday. I think that's right.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 22:53

And at the same time you know give yourself a little love, that you're doing the best you can and you know if there's things you can do to, you know take a breath or care for you while you do that, like that's okay too. You know, excessive self-love certainly is a problem, but you know you got to love yourself too.

Mr. Webb: 23:12

Well, you brought that up and I hadn't thought about it. But how important is loving yourself? I know that's a different love than you have for a spouse or a child. Maybe you know that's a different love than you'd normally think about on Valentine's Day, but talk to us about that.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 23:31

Yeah, I think it's really important. I was reading Jordan Peterson's book 12 Rules for Life and one of his rules was treat yourself like somebody you were responsible for caring for, or something like that, and I thought that was a good way to think about it. To say, you know, if I'm going to love myself, what would you know if I could look from the outside? What would I want me to have right now and maybe that's a little you know, I understand what you're going through or maybe that's a you know, dig in a little harder, but having that notion that you're responsible to yourself but also, you know, loving to yourself.

Mr. Webb: 24:15

And I know people I'm sure you do too who are living, breathing martyrs, so to speak where they that everybody's needs ahead of their own and I'm not sure that this is what he was talking about in the Seven Habits book, but it fits. And that is, you're sacrificing the goose to get the golden egg.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 24:44

And I think there's a need, you know, for most people that there's a need for balance in some way to sustain that. You know I there certainly are outliers and some, you know, some of them seem really awesome. You know, and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna criticize them, but most people, you know, need a balance and care for yourself too, you know.

Mr. Webb: 25:08

Right, that's so important and that's I hadn't even thought of. That. I'm so glad you brought that up. Teachers are really bad, some teachers. Some teachers are really bad about excuse me. They take their work home with them, they grade papers, they plan at home and they leave little room for their self. You know, by the time you you work all day.

Mr. Webb: 25:33

You go home to your family, cook a meal, take care of the kids, and then what little time you have, you're working again. So I think that's so important. So, teachers, take some time for yourself.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 25:47

Yeah, I mean, we see that in medicine all the time and it's it's so tempting because it's a role you know, you know the rules, you know, you know what to do and it's it's sort of safe and sometimes, if you do that too much, you forget. You know what. What is it like to be with me and how do I care for me, you know. So, yeah, whatever your profession is, it's you know, it's okay to, it's okay to pause.

Mr. Webb: 26:14

What about the folks that you know? I just thought of this and I think it's so important. What about the folks who maybe don't feel loved?

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 26:25

Yeah, that's, that's a tricky one. So so certainly they're, you know their reasons why people might feel that way. You know it's their development, their history, their environment, and I think it's, you know, probably seeking a relationship or connection or a group or someplace where they can just be and be with people who positively regard them, regard them and, you know, sort of set up a home base and explore from there. You know, I once again, I also think it's, it's you know they certainly could act lovingly and maybe that will also, you know, improve their environment and sort of feed forward too.

Mr. Webb: 27:11

Yeah, and I wonder how love the verb? I wonder how folks that don't feel loved, how they could, how the idea of love as a verb or love as a commandment and you touched on it a little bit is maybe they love more and get more love in return.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 27:33

Yeah, yeah, I think that's-.

Mr. Webb: 27:34

Maybe that's, maybe it's just the people they're around. Maybe they're a really loving person and really kind and thoughtful person, but they're around the wrong people. So how can you tell which is which and what you do about that?

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 27:50

Yeah, it's. I mean I'm biased as a psychiatrist. I would probably talk about their past relationships and how they've grown up and what sort of? Ideas they have when they think about the world and relationships and start to understand that as beginning to build a map for how they might feel love or where they could feel love. Certainly, if they have a history of trauma or things like that, that could need treatment. And that's how I would approach it, but of course that's from my perspective.

Mr. Webb: 28:27

Right, it makes me think of and this actually just happened this week. Excuse me, I was working on a seating chart for a class and I had a couple of students. Please don't, I'm just gonna use Billy, that's a-. Yeah, just use that as a name. Please don't set me near Billy. And another one please move me away from Billy. And Billy's not a troublemaker. And I thought you know what's going on there. And he kind of heard him and he's like, yeah, I don't have any friends. So I thought, well, that's kind of sad that he feels that way. So I waited a minute or two and I pulled him out in the hallway discreetly and I was like hey you know, why did you?

Mr. Webb: 29:14

why do you feel like that? And he's like I don't, I don't have any friends in this class. And I'm like, well, who, if I could set you beside one person, who would that be? Well, nobody, I don't have any friends in this class. And I said why do you feel that way? Oh, nobody likes me. And he was just matter of fact. But after he said that, he started to tear up a little bit. So I, you know, I thought what in the world did? I talk to the school counselor and I've just given him a little extra attention this week. And you know, I'm not sure what do you do as a teacher? You know there's not much I can do about that, but to do encouraging things and give him a little extra attention. But that's so sad, do you see? Do you see a lot of college students that kind of feel alone, I guess, especially since a lot of students leave their hometown to go to a city maybe, where they don't know anybody?

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 30:21

Yeah, there's a lot of loneliness, you know, in society in general and, yeah, in college kids too. And college is tricky because you know they see the brochures and they get the campus tour and sort of. You know, get the bill of goods that you're gonna feel like you belong here right away. But you know they don't have that experience and it can. You know it can be really hard. So certainly you know that's part of it and you know it's that if you don't like where you're at, not in a geographic sense, but you know you gotta move or do something, you know.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 30:57

So if you're feeling that way, once again, you know, as a college student, you know I, for example, encourage them. Hey, there are some clubs you wanna check out, you know this. You have more opportunity to do stuff here than ever. You know like and get involved and I sort of encourage along those lines. You know. You know thinking of Billy and I don't, you know, I don't know your class structure, you know is there, you know are there group projects? You know, or you know little tasks. People can work together and realize you know he's, you know. Okay, you know like, you know I'm one of those other ways to shake up the milieu.

Mr. Webb: 31:31

Right, I give them the option each day to work individually, in pairs or groups of three. So I have encouraged, you know, some folks to kind of let him join their group. But he doesn't want to. He wants to be, you know, he wants to be alone and I guess if he feels that way, you know I can, I guess I would want to feel alone or I would want to be alone too. I don't know, but I have.

Mr. Webb: 32:02

I've done some other things, you know. I try to really point out when he, when he does something good, you know, and brag on him, trying to get others to see his good qualities, and I even gave him a nickname. So you know, like I say, this just happened this week, so time will tell if that has any effect. But I know from previous years of teaching, sometimes you don't know what the effect is until later when they look back and say, you know, this teacher did this and it just really meant a lot to me. And sometimes they'll tell you, you know, at the end of the school year they'll say, hey, I just wanted you to know that this was my favorite class. You know, I would come to your class, kind of down in the dumps and I came in here and it was always the brightest part of my day. So I just you know, you hope that you make a difference. Sometimes you know whether you do or not Sometimes, sometimes you have to wait.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 33:08

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I, you know, I just had an opportunity to go visit briefly with a professor I had in college 25 years ago and he stuck with me, you know, and I just wanted to pop in and say hello and thanks, you know. So it's, yes, sometimes those are really lasting things.

Mr. Webb: 33:31

And it definitely makes you feel excuse me, definitely makes you feel important, feel like you made a difference, which is why I got into teaching to make a difference. And I know you're making a difference and appreciate what you do. And, as we wrap up the conversation, what's the one thing about the topic of love? What's the one thing you want the listeners to remember, if they don't remember anything else about this episode?

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 34:03

I would just say, you know, think about love as an action, and maybe just you know one way you could be grateful for the love that somebody gave you you didn't think of, or how you could show it to somebody in your life. You know, as you go forward.

Mr. Webb: 34:22

And I know in the last episode we did together, I shared your sub-stack. Is there anything else that you'd like to share out and let folks know about any? Anything you want to plug or promote.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 34:38

No, not really, but today I'm promoting love, so go be loving folks.

Mr. Webb: 34:45

I appreciate that and thank you so much for joining us again on The Conservative Classroom and I know our listeners appreciate your insights on love from your perspective. You have students tell you things that they might not tell other folks. You kind of see pull back the curtain, so to speak. So it meant a lot to me you coming on and talking about this topic today. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Timothy Cordes: 35:13

You are welcome. Have a good week in Valentine's Day and all that stuff.

Mr. Webb: 35:19

Thank you so much, you too. That's it for today's episode of The Conservative Classroom. Thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed it and learned something. If you liked what you heard, please don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Most importantly, share this podcast with a like-minded educator, parent or patriot. You can also connect with us on social media and share your thoughts on today's topic. Give feedback on the podcast or suggest a topic by sending me an email at TheConservativeClassroom@ gmail. com. We'd love to hear from you.

Mr. Webb: 36:02

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Mr. Webb: 36:35

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