Mr. Webb: 0:00

Have you ever wondered how healthy debate can shape our students' perspectives and encourage American pride? Are you curious about the transformative power of open debate in breaking the echo chambers in our schools, looking for ways to engage young minds in critical thinking and respectful discourse? Welcome to The Conservative Classroom, where we're teaching the truth and preserving our values. I'm your host, Mr. Webb, and I'm glad you're here. This podcast is a haven for conservative educators, parents and patriots like you, who believe in the importance of free speech, traditional values and education without indoctrination. Each week, we dive into issues that are plaguing our education system and keeping you up at night. In each episode, we offer common sense ideas to improve education in our classrooms and communities. You may feel like you're the last conservative educator or parent, but I want you to know that you are not alone. By the way, if you like what you hear today, please share this podcast with a like-minded educator, parent or patriot. Together, we can teach the truth and preserve our values. In today's episode, we dive into the transformative role of open debate in fostering critical thinking, civil discourse and a renewed sense of American pride, with James Fishback, founder of Incubate Debate.

Mr. Webb: 1:37

Now let's get started. Today, I'm excited to welcome a special guest to The Conservative Classroom, James Fishback. James is the founder of Incubate Debate, America's fastest- growing debate league. He's here to share the importance of healthy debate in the classroom. James has also served as an external advisor for Vivek Ramaswamy, former presidential candidate. James, thank you so much for joining us. That's my pleasure, joey. I appreciate it. To start, can you tell us a bit about yourself, your background, and what led you to founding Incubate Debate?

James Fishback: 2:21

Well, I grew up in South Florida, went to public high school and the first year of class I didn't have an elective, so they threw me in this little thing called debate. I'd always had a penchant for politics and economics. I had a really bad stutter growing up, but I was in this debate class and I was telling the truth. It was kind of weirded out a little bit, but I went to my first tournament. I fell in love with this activity and for the next four years I was an active member of my debate team. I served as captain. I went on to win a national championship.

James Fishback: 2:56

Needless to say, high school debate changed my life. It made me a more confident public speaker. It allowed me to understand and appreciate the other side of controversial issues, and it taught me to be a good speaker, yes, but it also taught me to be what I think I am, which is a good listener, and so I can't speak highly enough about debate, even though, as I'm sure we'll talk about Joey, high school debate is no longer what it used to be, and Incubate Debate is trying to fix that. We are now America's fastest growing debate league, serving not just high school students but middle school students. We are no cost. We are nonpartisan. Our job is to simply be a platform for young Americans from all walks of life to come together and to exchange their views on some of the most important issues facing the country.

Mr. Webb: 3:44

So nonpartisan. And you're on The Conservative Classroom, so just let that. I guess the listener sink in. This is nonpartisan, so you guys welcome everybody. It doesn't matter, you're not looking for conservative students, you're looking for anybody.

James Fishback: 4:01

We do. That's right, and it's kind of crazy that I even have to say nonpartisan when I talk about a high school debate league, because that wasn't the case 15 years ago. I came back to high school debate in 2017, where I coached a team of an underprivileged high school in Miami, not too far from where I grew up, and the high school debate that I came back to just four years later after being a competitor, it was a shell of its former self. I'll never forget that first debate tournament that I went to Joey at, a young black student, very bright free thinker, and he was told after the debate by this judge that he would have won the debate had he not criticized the Black Lives Matter organization for being Marxist. And so, wait, hold on a second you had a young man who, by every other measure, had won the debate in front of him but was told by his judge you know what I didn't like that you said bad things about BLM, even though they are a self-avowed Marxist organization, and therefore you lose. And so, looking back on this, this was the beginning of a really awful trend in high school debate.

James Fishback: 5:08

I wrote in the Free Press last May in an article entitled that high school debates. Debate is no longer allowed because truly it's no longer allowed. You have one judge who was actually the 2019 national debate champion, telling students and I'm quoting here before anything else, including being a debate judge, I am a Marxist, Leninist, Maoist. I will no longer evaluate and thus ever vote for rightist, capitalist, imperialist positions, example of which include defending the US capitalism good, normalizing Israel or policing good. And so, Joey, when I say nonpartisan, what I'm talking about is we are a debate league, unlike the national speech and debate association, which is where this judge judges for or like the one that criticized my young student for criticizing BLM. We are not like them. We are nonpartisan. I'm an unlogetic conservative. As you mentioned, I was honored to serve as an advisor to Vivek Ramaswamy's campaign, but nonpartisan means nonpartisan. Our job is to simply be that platform where kids come together and have good faith debates.

Mr. Webb: 6:16

And I think that's great. As a teacher, obviously I'm conservative enough that I started a podcast called The Conservative Classroom. My students don't have a clue that I have a podcast. They don't have a clue whether I'm conservative or liberal. I keep politics completely out of the classroom and so in that sense I'm nonpartisan. I suppose so is that what sparked you starting Incubate Debate?

James Fishback: 6:46

What happened to that student?

Mr. Webb: 6:47

Which by the way is amazing that, instead of judging that student on his debate skills, they decided or at least one judge, if I understand you correctly, decided no, I don't agree, so no, exactly.

James Fishback: 7:05

And there's just so many other examples. I'll read you one more. And this is a judge who says quote if you are discussing immigrants in a round and describe that immigrant as illegal, I will immediately stop the round, give you the loss and give you a stern lecture and then talk to your coach. I will not have you making the debate space unsafe. And so here we go, joey, we have an adult, a grown adult, who's supposed to be educating students as a high school debate judge, telling kids they will automatically lose and then be publicly humiliated for using a term illegal immigrant. That's ubiquitous in our media and politics and is also, by the way, completely accurate If you are in this country illegally, you are an illegal immigrant. That's just a fact.

James Fishback: 7:56

And so this type of snowflake babying that says that certain words and certain arguments are off limits and will result in instant disqualification. This means that high school debate, as I knew it, as so many young people knew it 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago, is no longer what it is. This is why I started incubate debate, because young Americans deserve to be able to speak their convictions, to have debates, to be able to grow without this type of humiliation and punishment from adults who have an ideological agenda and, by the way, I'm a conservative. You are too, but I'll tell you, if someone was telling kids, I am a MAGA Republican, and if you say anything about defunding the police or having an open border, you will automatically lose and I will give you a stern lecture. It would be just as unacceptable. And so I speak, I'd like to think, from a position of wanting free speech, wanting free expression, and, yes, I'm a conservative. Yes, the victims of this broken system are also conservative students. But if this were happening to the other side, I would be just as upset.

Mr. Webb: 9:04

You mentioned the judge saying using the word unsafe, so I kind of wrote that down. So this is where the speech is violence thing, excuse me. So if you can convince yourself that speech you don't like is violence, then that kind of gives you the moral authority to say, no, we're not going to allow that because it's violence.

James Fishback: 9:32

That's exactly right and that that is a slippery slope. When people start talking about hate speech and calling speech violence and saying that Essentially what you say can actually harm people, then that creates, that, opens the door for being able to say Well, illegal immigrant, that's, of course, violence. Capitalism, that's violence. One judge says that if you argue that Israel has a right to defend itself, that is violence, and so any conservative position, heck, even any center-right, centrist position like capitalism can reduce poverty Effectively, becomes something that is makes you as a student, persona non grata, and that's why incubate debate. I believe is necessary for these young Americans to have that platform.

Mr. Webb: 10:18

So tell us more about Incubate Debate, the mission and exactly what it is.

James Fishback: 10:28

Well i t's a nonprofit organization. Our mission actually isn't to host high school debate tournaments or to host free debate camps, even though that's what we do, and we do it proudly. Our mission is in our name. Our job is to incubate debate, to expose, to bring open debate, civil debate, to young Americans wherever they are, and so for the first five years of our organization, we've done that almost exclusively through our debate tournaments, which happened roughly 25 per year. The season culminates in an annual national championship, which is next month in Jacksonville. Students earn scholarships. They debate topics from is there a climate emergency? To Should colleges abolish DEI programs? We don't. We don't take anything off the table. Anything and everything should be debated and up for debate.

James Fishback: 11:16

But what we're increasingly doing Joey and I was actually just in a place called Hendry County, Florida, last week, working with 50 middle and high school social studies teachers on how they can bring Open debate into their classroom in a way that is coded to standards, that is set for benchmarks and that is enriching and engaging for their students. And so what incubate debate stands for is not just debates on a Saturday at a high school or 150 kids get together. No, it's about reaching kids wherever they are, whether that's in their Civics class, world history class, environmental science class. How can we infuse debate in the classroom? I'll tell you one way we did it at that workshop was we actually had some students participate in a debate for the teachers, and it was about who was right in those constitutional debates in the late 1780s Was it the federalists or was it the anti-federalists? And so you actually assign sides to students, students who represented each position, and they had an open, roundtable debate, which is a format that's exclusive to incubate. It's a free-form debate 10 to 20 minutes. Students sit in a semi circle, seven to eight of them, and there's only three rules you can't stand up, you can't use notes and you have to always observe the golden rule treat others the way you want to be treated.

James Fishback: 12:31

And so here, right before our eyes, what you see, Joey, is people, young people, having a debate about the Bill of Rights, about this idea of federalism, this idea of states rights versus federal rights, the delegation of powers, the 10th amendment, all of that in real- time.

James Fishback: 12:52

And so there's an old Ben Franklin quote, which is you know, show me and something along the lines of "Show me and I'll get it, but involve me and I'll understand it.

James Fishback: 13:03

And and that's what we're really trying to do here is to involve kids in Education, and doing that through debate is an excellent, excellent way, and that's the next part of our. Our mission here is going beyond those debate tournaments that we host for the select few students who are able to participate in a Saturday debate, who want to invest Call it five, six hours a week and then bring the power of open debate to any student. Use the power of the captive audience in the classroom To say, hey, this is AP environmental science, but we're gonna have a debate about nuclear versus geothermal, about solar versus wind. Put your Textbooks away, let's discuss what you guys have been learning for three weeks. Let's put it to the test because ultimately, if you can defend your position, if you can understand your position well enough to Defend it in front of a group of your peers, then you truly have excelled at that subject matter.

Mr. Webb: 13:56

That's great. So it's not. It's not them preparing a speech, it's. You know, let's sit down, no notes, have at it. That's, that's interesting.

James Fishback: 14:09

Yeah, that's what we're doing and that's. You know, part of one of my many gripes with debate was the fact that it seemed awfully rigid and inorganic and Inauthentic, and so most debates. You and I probably have debates every single day, but they don't happen in a structured way. You have two minutes, I have three minutes to respond. We have a questioning, we have a cross examination. We know most debates happen around the dinner table. Most debates happen in boardrooms. Most debates happen in teacher planning, when you're getting together with your colleagues and talking about how we're gonna Do a certain thing or not do a certain thing. And so I think about that.

James Fishback: 14:47

Ben Franklin quote "Tell me and I forget, teach me and I may remember. Involve me and I learn. What better way to get young people to learn than to engage with the content at such a high level? They're actually defending Anti-federalists like George Clinton or federalists like Alexander Hamilton in a live, open debate. It's like the view, with the exception that there's actually multiple views and descent is tolerated. It's like the view they're all seated around a round table, they're having an open discussion and anything goes. They have to be civil, they have to be respectful, but it's. It's a really magical experience for the kids.

Mr. Webb: 15:26

So how do you see open debate? You talked a little about how that in the educational setting, but to me I see that as developing some critical thinking skills and, excuse me, kind of thinking on the fly.

James Fishback: 15:42

I'm not sure what the the term is for that I Would say, thinking on the fly is the term for it and and you'd be right. Right, because in the real world you don't get to go to a inner a job interview and have prepared notes and pull out a note card, or in the real world, you have to just kind of sit there and apt and respond and think on your feet. And so you're absolutely right. Critical thinking, the ability to think for yourself. We teach students that you have to understand all sides of an issue right To be able to actually effectively argue your side of the issue. And so, apart from something that is completely tied to the standards and completely tied to your curriculum in the classroom, you're actually teaching your students how to do something that is gonna be immensely valuable, which is being confident, answering questions, maintaining eye contact, cravitas poise.

James Fishback: 16:33

I'll tell you, young people today and I don't need I'm preaching to the choir when I say this to you, but young people today, this is the most disconnected generation, precisely because they are the most quote, unquote connected generation when it comes to technology.

James Fishback: 16:47

And so you walk into a restaurant, you see a bunch of kids are 15, 16 year olds hanging out. They're all on their phones and instead what they should be doing is having an open conversation. That's how they actually get to some semblance of real world skills. And so when teachers are doing this, when they're having open debates and this can be this has both elements that are formative and summative this can be the replacement for a quiz. It can be what's used to prepare for the AP exam. It could be what's used after the AP exam to keep your kids engaged. Whatever it is, and I'll tell you this, one of my proudest moments when doing this is when a teacher emailed me and said I use this on my regular students, on my honor students and on my AP students, and they all did well, but the ones who really stood out, who punched above their weight, who knocked my socks off, were those kids in the regular history class. And so this is something that can be applied to all students of all abilities, that they can actually participate in.

Mr. Webb: 17:46

I would imagine that you witness a fire start within some of the students that maybe didn't really care that much about education before, have you?

James Fishback: 17:58

seen that we do, yeah, we do. There's an old adage, I'm sure you've heard it Kids speak better than they write. They speak better than they write. And so what better way? Because there's not really any other way. We don't see oral exams, maybe in some of those foreign language classes, but we don't really see oral examination.

James Fishback: 18:18

This is the highest form of oral examination because it's actually a debate, and so you have students in the back of the class who might be fully engaged with the content smart kids, they punch above their weight, but there's so much inertia that goes into sitting down and writing that short essay that you end up losing them.

James Fishback: 18:38

And so what this ends up being is a powerful tool to engage any and all students, because, yeah, the kids who are extroverts are gonna do especially well at it. But it's also the students who are at the back of the room who you've only heard their voice once or twice the entire school year. They're the ones who have the most to gain because they're gonna blossom, and what we've heard from teachers is that they had a debate in one class and then they had their colleague in another class tell them why is Nick all of a sudden more vocal? I all of a sudden notice him engaging with the content more and speaking up more and asking questions and being more attentive. So there's really big dividends here. And it just doesn't apply to those students who are in that particular class. It carries over to other preps, to other courses of the students who are involved and engages them across all of them.

Mr. Webb: 19:31

So here's a basic question, but for someone like myself that wasn't a debater. What makes for a good debate?

James Fishback: 19:43

What a great question. I'll tell you what doesn't make for a good debate, which is those presidential debates that we see every four years. They're like a dueling press conference. Right, there's a debate. Let's just define that word, because we take it for granted. A debate is defined by clash. Clash is opposing viewpoints that are addressing one another. And so if you and I are having a debate about what is the better fruit, and you say strawberry and I say mango, but I just keep saying mango and you just keep saying strawberry and I'm not addressing your point and you're not addressing my point, then we're not having a debate, we're just talking past one another.

James Fishback: 20:24

A debate is where our arguments are actively clashing, when you're saying things like well, yeah, but a mango doesn't offer you the same antioxidant benefits as a strawberry does.

James Fishback: 20:35

And then I say, well, but a mango can be served like the XYZ, and so a debate actually has to clash. And so why do those presidential debates fall short of this definition Is because President Trump will say XYZ, and then President Biden will just have some ad hominem attack accusing him of being some kind of a Putin sympathizer, and so he doesn't actually address the argument in front of them. And I gotta say Republicans are also guilty of this They'll tell you that Ukraine is gonna fall in 30 days if you don't send them more money, and then, if you provide a well-reasoned, substantive rebuttal of that, they then call you a Putin sympathizer. And so debates are largely free of ad hominem attacks. The arguments have to be about the substance, not the individuals making those arguments, and there has to be clash. There has to be this back and forth where it says okay, you said this, but what about this, and how do you address that in the context of this? That is what a true debate is Talking, not past one another, but talking with one another.

Mr. Webb: 21:40

When you mentioned presidential debate, I laughed, because the first thing that I thought of and this is what drives me nuts about the presidential debates the moderator becomes part of the debate, and that's right. I don't know much about debating, but I know that the moderator is supposed to moderate and not supposed to become part of the debate. And the fact that they have a okay, here's the topic, you have three minutes or whatever, and then okay, no, no, we're gonna move on to the next topic. We're gonna move on to the next topic and I would like to see whether it's two people or three, or, excuse me, in the primary debates where it was half a dozen people on stage. Just let them go at it, let them get it all out. Let's see if we can get them involved and get them past their talking points and see some real debate. So I'm glad you brought that up.

James Fishback: 22:37

Yes, and you're absolutely right that moderator. We've seen it, especially in that 2020 debate is actively playing a role. Whether it was Chris Wallace fact-checking President Trump about the vaccines and saying they would never come out by the end of the year, even though they came out a week after the election and then ended up being a disaster in itself, which is a whole separate debate. Whether it was Anderson Cooper fact-checking Mitt Romney in the 2012 debate and essentially siding with Obama and kind of coming in as his partner there about that question on Benghazi. What I wanna get back to, what we need to get back to as a country, is those political debates that a man by the name of Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas participated in in the 1850s, and here's how they worked. Each debate lasted three hours. Lincoln would speak for 60 minutes, douglas would have 90 minutes to respond and to make his own arguments, and then Lincoln would be given a final 30 minute rejoinder, and so what you had there was each individual in that debate had an hour and a half, but it was staggered and that's brilliant.

James Fishback: 23:50

No, moderator, nobody's saying, well, we don't want to talk about China now. We don't want to talk about fentanyl now. No, nobody's saying well, these topics, what we care about. The reality of the situation is in those primary debates. There were so many issues in the public in primary debates that the average public and primary voter would have ranked probably around 20 or 30 on their list of issues. And so most Republicans care about what's happening with the border, or inflation, if those got the same attention as Russia, or supposedly what happened on January 6, or so on and so forth. And so what these types of Lincoln-Douglas debates did is they allowed the candidates to be in charge, not the moderators, who have consistently had their thumb on the scale and done it in a way. That's really a disservice, joey, to the American people, who need to listen to these debates to make up their mind about which candidate to support.

Mr. Webb: 24:43

And one more thing on the presidential debates Vivek Rameswamy, he is such a wonderful debater and I could I just. I so enjoyed watching him go at it, and you are a master debater. So is there a connection there? Is that how you guys know each other through that, or is that just a total coincidence?

James Fishback: 25:14

Vivek is. I think his debating skills were off the charts because he didn't come to those debates, Joey, as a debater. He came there as someone who wanted to speak truth and speak conviction. He didn't treat them like some game where you score points by using some canned one-liner against Ron DeSantis or Nikki Haley. He came there with a mission, which was to speak truth to the American people.

James Fishback: 25:41

And I'll tell you, I was at that first debate in Milwaukee and a lot of the people in the audience didn't like what he had to say at times. But remember, those people in the audience were not representative of the primary voting electorate. They were largely friends of the Republican National Committee, friends of candidates and donors and so on. And so what Vivek did particularly well is he was concise. He spoke about what people wanted to hear and he did it in a way that was engaging and that left people wanting more from him. And that wasn't a debate trick or a tactic. It's not something that he could have picked up in a debate prep session. It's something he lived and that's just who he is. He's someone who is going to speak his convictions, speak truth and communicate those ideas, not as some professor, not trying to lecture the people, but as someone who is treating them as equals and as a part of this very special thing we call the United States of America.

Mr. Webb: 26:44

One of the things that I loved that he was pushing for is us getting back to American pride, and I know that's one thing your organization. What role does American pride play in Incubate Debate.

James Fishback: 27:04

It plays a really important one.

James Fishback: 27:06

Now I want to be clear that any type of forced ideology on young people is wrong.

James Fishback: 27:13

It's wrong when a teacher wants to lecture kids with critical race theory and preach about transgenderism, and it's wrong when some conservatives want to force some pro-American message down young people's throats.

James Fishback: 27:27

What we believe is what President Reagan believes, which is informed patriotism. We believe that if you lay all the facts out there the good, bad and the ugly about this country's history that young people left to their own devices will understand and recognize that this is the most special country, the greatest country that has ever existed and that will ever exist. And so we are all about informed patriotism. We do that a number of ways. We do that by providing a research packet to our students that presents both sides of the issue. We do that by bringing in veterans and first responders and active service members to come out and evaluate students as debate judges. And we do that by starting every debate with the pledge of allegiance. This country was built on free speech and open debate, and so what better way to start our debates than by honoring the country that really started it all and making debate part of the very fabric of our country, through and through.

Mr. Webb: 28:32

And civility and free expression I know are core values of Incubate Debate and today, you know, the climate is so polarized. How do you encourage students to maintain those values during debates and do you have some students who don't want to maintain civility and free expression?

James Fishback: 28:58

There are, and those are learning opportunities for those students. They walk away better for it and they come back better and more civil. What our message is is twofold. One, this is not a competition. This is not a debate tournament. This is not a game. We are here to partake in the great American tradition of open debate, the open debates that decided whether or not we were going to declare independence. The open debates between folks like the Federalist and the Anti-Federalist that gave us documents like the Bill of Rights, that gave us the Constitution. Debates in the 1960s that gave us important civil rights legislation to right the wrongs of the past.

James Fishback: 29:37

And so, when we think about civility, the first thing we have to do is this is not a competition. This is not something where you're going to compete against someone. You're going to compete with them. You can attack their argument, but don't attack them as a person. Recognize that good people can differ, that great ideas are a byproduct of opposing ideas clashing. Hence why debate in all of its forms is essential. And that young people most of the time, they hold those views about Republicans or MAGA Trump supporters because they've never actually interacted with people on the other side.

James Fishback: 30:16

And so what I'm really proud of is how much our team has reached out to rural communities and tribal communities and brought in students from all walks of life, from all political persuasions. I can go up there and preach civility and viewpoint diversity all day long, but unless we bring together a young progressive who is a card-carrying member of the Democrat Party, and unless we bring together a young conservative who considers themselves America first and have them have a conversation about the border, about Ukraine, about NATO, about asylum, then we can't actually do anything. And so incubate debate has those young people. We've made it our mission to bring people from all walks of life. We've done that in large part by being no cost. We've done that by doing workshops. We were in Hamilton County, florida today, a very rural community in a city called Jasper, doing this work.

James Fishback: 31:08

So when we say that we've got people from all diverse perspectives, we're not talking about shades of melanin, we're talking about people who represent all parts of this country, and so I think that's how we do it. More than anything. We can talk about civility, we can have catchy taglines and good empowering speeches to start our tournaments, but if you don't actually bring people who represent the widest range of viewpoints in this country together. That is actually the way you teach civility. Is that a young person talking to a kid from an agricultural community recognizing hey, you're not all that different? For me, you're not the person that Joe Biden says is a MAGA extremist. We may not agree on everything, but remember, good people can differ and debate is not a bug. Debate is a feature of our constitutional republic. Our disagreement is exactly precisely why America is so great. It's how we produce the best ideas that have propelled us forward.

Mr. Webb: 32:10

Now a little bit that you brought up viewpoint diversity, because nowadays when you hear diversity it is many times it's everybody thinks the same way, they just all look different, and that's really not diversity.

James Fishback: 32:25

No, it's not. Ibram X Kendi is black,Ta- Nehisi Coates is black, but having them on a panel does not make the panel any more diverse. They hold the exact same few points about race, systemic racism, structural, all of that. And so what actually makes diversity is diverse opinions. I mean, diversity is not what made this country great, I'm sorry to say. It was the diversity of viewpoints that made this country great. Now that does map with the traditional physical characteristics of diversity, which is to say that people from lower income communities, people from higher income communities, they may have different shades of melanin, but what actually produces great outcomes is not different shades of melanin or different genders, but it's people holding different viewpoints. Someone from an agricultural community having a discussion with someone from the city, someone from the West having a discussion with someone from the East, someone from this particular school of economics having a discussion with someone who's more of a free market thinker that's what produces good outcomes.

James Fishback: 33:36

And so diversity for diversity's sake isn't going to do anybody any good. It's actually going to actively harm people. Because you're saying you're diverse, you're telling people this is what diversity looks like, but you're not actually showing them what say the real diversity in this country looks like, and so to any panel out there that says this is a diverse panel or a diverse conference, we want to start off with how many Trump supporters are in the audience. Raise your hands, and if you don't see a single hand, that's a problem. That's not diversity. And I'd say the same thing to my conservative friends that if you're having a panel, you need to have a progressive on there. You need to have someone to disagree with, because having 10 people in the room all saying the same things isn't going to get us where we need to be.

Mr. Webb: 34:22

And my listeners are parents and teachers. So to someone that might be listening and they really like what they've heard and they want to look into incubate debate, what would be their next steps and who is a good candidate for Incubate Debate?

James Fishback: 34:45

It's a. We would, first and foremost, be honored to have them as a part of this movement. And it really is a movement. It's not a nonprofit. It's a movement of parents, of students, of teachers who recognize the power and the enriching abilities of open and civil debate. And so there's two ways to be involved. If you're a teacher, go to incubate debateorg. Get in touch with us about our incubate teachers toolkit, which is what we discussed earlier.

James Fishback: 35:12

How can you bring the power of open debate into your classroom Again, in a way that is educational, not just a fun thing to debate XYZ, but to actually have debates on what is expected of you and standards, what is in your curriculum to get kids ready, to not just get them ready for your curriculum, but also to give them other real world skills, like being able to disagree agreeably and speak up and have confidence, and so on. So go to incubate debate. If you're a teacher, we want to hear from you, we want to work with you. Again, everything we do is no cost. And the second thing, Joey, is for parents that are out there.

James Fishback: 35:44

Right now, we're serving about 5,000 kids in three states Florida, georgia, south Carolina but we are looking for parents who want to step up and say I want to run an incubate chapter of my own. I want to host local incubate tournaments, even if it's for just 15, 20, 30 kids. I want to give these students a platform to come together a couple times in the school year and to have debates. I'm not interested in making money off of this. I'm just someone who cares a lot about free expression and the power of viewpoint, diversity and also, if that's the case, go to incubate debate. Reach out to us about our incubate USA chapter chair initiative and we want to work with you. We want to talk with you about how we can get you ready to be hosting these tournaments. And there's no tournament that's too small. You got to start somewhere. Any opportunity to have young Americans come together to exchange ideas is going to be a good opportunity for not just them, but for the country that they will soon inherit.

Mr. Webb: 36:41

So you said a chapter chair initiative on incubate. I'll make sure and put links to your website on the show notes and I usually, towards the end, will ask, if you want to, you know, to share out how folks can connect with you. But I'll go ahead and ask that now, since we brought up the website, yeah, how can folks connect with you or check out other projects? Basically, this is your time to promote anything you want to.

James Fishback: 37:16

Best way to get in touch is email James just how it sounds, James@IncubateDebate. org. Send an email if you have an idea, if you want to talk any about the teacher's toolkit or our chapter chair initiative, we'd love to get in touch and go to IncubateDebateorg. We have a newsletter. Sign up for that newsletter. We have thousands of people on it. We want to share updates with you. So maybe you're not ready right now to engage with us, but there may be a time where, a year or two years down the line, an opportunity presents itself where you want to give students, give your own kids, give whomever, an opportunity to reap the benefits and really to reap the benefits of debate. You know, debate is something that everyone that I talked to, who did it not recently because it's been totally hijacked, but did it back in the day, you know, in 1982, it was Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch who won the national debate champion. People like Oprah Winfrey, Katanji Brown Jackson, Ted Cruz credited their success with being a part of debate.

James Fishback: 38:20

And so what incubate is doing and it's no easy task, it's not going to be easy for us, but nothing worth doing is easy is we are going to totally transform debate and make it something that you know. We don't leave it up to the creative writing club, joey, to teach creative writing. We also sign that to our English teachers. We don't leave it up to the history club to teach kids about World War II. They learned that in their US history class. We shouldn't leave it up to the debate club to teach kids how to disagree agreeably, how to be able to hold their own, how to concede, how to be good speakers, but also how to be great listeners.

James Fishback: 38:57

And so what we are doing, more than anything, is we are having the eye on the target. How can we bring open debate to students wherever they are? Yes, at our tournaments. Yes, for our chapter chairs, but also for the millions and millions of kids, sixth grade through twelfth grade, who are at school for seven, eight hours a day. They should be able to reap the benefits of open debate as well. And for teachers out there. If this even remotely interests you, please send us an email, james@incubatedebate. org. We'd love to talk, we'd love to compare notes and how we can bring the power of open debate into your classroom.

Mr. Webb: 39:35

And what's the one thing you want the listeners to remember, if they don't remember anything else about this episode?

James Fishback: 39:43

I would say that debate made this country great. Every turning point, every idea, every invention, every innovation was the byproduct of a rigorous discussion with opposing viewpoints. That is the definition of debate, even if at the time people didn't think of it as debate. Everything went through that process. We can't stop now. We have a country, I believe, to save, and one way we can do that is by bringing young people together. Our country, our education, depends on it and, more than anything, the path to truth runs through it. It runs through open debate. That's how we can really really make a difference for young people and that's what I would leave your listeners with.

Mr. Webb: 40:31

That's great stuff, and you have a book coming out. Is that correct?

James Fishback: 40:37

I do. I'm working on it now. It is entitled "Clash how Open Debate Can Heal a Divided World and it's about the things that we're talking about right now. Debate has declined. It used to be the case that you could turn on CNN when I was a kid, 15, 20 years ago, and you'd see people like Tucker Carlson and John Stuart just going at it. That was a debate. You could turn on Fox and there wouldn't just be people who agreed with one another saying how great President Trump is. There would actually be some disagreement about particular things. You don't see that anymore, and so as a conservative, as a, I put that second. But I'm an American. I believe in free speech, open debate, free expression, and what we need to see in our society to really kick up this next wave of American growth is we need to bring back debate. Some would say we need to make debate great again.

Mr. Webb: 41:25

Ooh, that is. That's a good note to end on right there. I appreciate you so much coming on today and when your book comes out, send me an email, let me know and I'd love to have you back on. We'll promote that and I'll put a link to that in the show notes where I think pick up a copy. It's been a pleasure having you on the conservative classroom and I know our listeners appreciate your insights on the importance of healthy debate with our young people of America.

James Fishback: 41:55

So thank you so much. Well, thank you, Joey, real pleasure to be here.

Mr. Webb: 42:02

That's it for today's episode of The Conservative Classroom. Thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed it and learned something. If you liked what you heard, please don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Most importantly, share this podcast with a like- minded educator, parent or patriot. You can also connect with us on social media and share your thoughts on today's topic. Give feedback on the podcast or suggest a topic by sending me an email at The ConservativeC lassroom@ gmailcom. We'd love to hear from you.

Mr. Webb: 42:40

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Mr. Webb: 43:14

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